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April 23, 2015 at 9:22 am (This post was last modified: April 23, 2015 at 9:27 am by Nope.)
(April 23, 2015 at 12:47 am)Godschild Wrote:
(April 22, 2015 at 7:40 pm)Nope Wrote: Jesus made several statements that seem to indicate that Christians shouldn't save their money. Are there any Christian groups that don't believe in saving money or don't use banks?
There are also many Old Testament verses about not charging fellow Hebrews usury. There are more verses against charging interest than there are about homosexuality being an abomination. If the number of verses influenced Christian politics than there would be mass protests against banks.
I don't know if there are similar verses in the Quran that seem to go against saving wealth. Are there Muslim groups that don't use banks?
These verses are a teaching against putting wealth or other things before God, we should be willing to give of what we have without worry and selfish acknowledgment .
I've known several wealthy Christians who give tremendous amounts of money and work to the church.
GC
The verses make it sound as if Christians should give all their extra belongings away. Jesus said that if you have two coats, give one away. Is it really following Jesus to give away a substantial amount to charity if you still have more than you need to survive? I honestly don't know how someone can be wealthy and still claim that they follow Jesus.
A few Christians might follow what Jesus taught but most seem to ignore him for Paul.
(April 22, 2015 at 8:23 pm)Dystopia Wrote: If it wasn't for the literary style and the fact Jesus mentions Heaven, I would say I was reading Karl Marx.
I think it's pretty clear that Christian charity to the poor is based on verses like those but I don't see what this has to do with bank accounts specifically - It just means you should give your money away if you have too many
It sounds as if Jesus didn't want people to have property beyond what they needed to survive.How do you open a savings account if you give everything extra to the poor?
Jesus would probably have had more in common with Marx than many of the modern politicians that use Christianity to win votes.
I find your thread interesting... It makes you think a lot. To me it would be a contradiction to those Christian's out there. A lot of Preachers and esp the very rich have a lot of money and they barely give any to charity... and even if they do give, it a tax write off.
(April 23, 2015 at 12:47 am)Godschild Wrote: These verses are a teaching against putting wealth or other things before God, we should be willing to give of what we have without worry and selfish acknowledgment .
I've known several wealthy Christians who give tremendous amounts of money and work to the church.
GC
The verses make it sound as if Christians should give all their extra belongings away. Jesus said that if you have two coats, give one away. Is it really following Jesus to give away a substantial amount to charity if you still have more than you need to survive? I honestly don't know how someone can be wealthy and still claim that they follow Jesus.
A few Christians might follow what Jesus taught but most seem to ignore him for Paul.
When God blesses someone with wealth and they us it as He directs, then they are doing His will, God can bless anyone He desires too. Those who are faithful with the responsibility of wealth may get to enjoy some of it because they understand the wealth came because of God.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
I don't really see how "god" can bless anyone with wealth. Especially when that wealth could potentially come from a variety of places: Working in a well paid career, winning the lottery, inheritance etc. None of those have anything to do with a god.
Disclaimer: I am only responsible for what I say, not what you choose to understand.
(November 14, 2018 at 8:57 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Have a good day at work. If we ever meet in a professional setting, let me answer your question now. Yes, I DO want fries with that.
April 24, 2015 at 12:58 pm (This post was last modified: April 24, 2015 at 12:59 pm by Nope.)
(April 23, 2015 at 9:35 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(April 23, 2015 at 9:22 am)Nope Wrote: The verses make it sound as if Christians should give all their extra belongings away. Jesus said that if you have two coats, give one away. Is it really following Jesus to give away a substantial amount to charity if you still have more than you need to survive? I honestly don't know how someone can be wealthy and still claim that they follow Jesus.
A few Christians might follow what Jesus taught but most seem to ignore him for Paul.
When God blesses someone with wealth and they us it as He directs, then they are doing His will, God can bless anyone He desires too. Those who are faithful with the responsibility of wealth may get to enjoy some of it because they understand the wealth came because of God.
GC
But again, how do they allow themselves to keep the excess? Jesus gave instructions as to how his followers should treat their wealth. They should give it away. It sounds as if Jesus expected people to just keep enough for survival.
Even if I believed that your god gave certain people wealth, it still doesn't change the fact that his son left his followers instructions on how to treat their excess food,clothing and wealth.
This is from Luke 3:11
Quote:He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
(April 23, 2015 at 9:22 am)Nope Wrote: The verses make it sound as if Christians should give all their extra belongings away. Jesus said that if you have two coats, give one away. Is it really following Jesus to give away a substantial amount to charity if you still have more than you need to survive? I honestly don't know how someone can be wealthy and still claim that they follow Jesus.
A few Christians might follow what Jesus taught but most seem to ignore him for Paul.
When God blesses someone with wealth and they us it as He directs, then they are doing His will, God can bless anyone He desires too. Those who are faithful with the responsibility of wealth may get to enjoy some of it because they understand the wealth came because of God.
GC
(April 22, 2015 at 7:40 pm)Nope Wrote: Jesus made several statements that seem to indicate that Christians shouldn't save their money. Are there any Christian groups that don't believe in saving money or don't use banks?
...
There are also many Old Testament verses about not charging fellow Hebrews usury. There are more verses against charging interest than there are about homosexuality being an abomination. If the number of verses influenced Christian politics than there would be mass protests against banks.
I don't know if there are similar verses in the Quran that seem to go against saving wealth. Are there Muslim groups that don't use banks?
Clearly Jesus had a lot to say about thinking on possessions, but it's not quite what it appears.
For most C1 Jews, by possessions was generally meant land. (The Hebrew words for possession, land, inheritance and rest are closely aligned.)
Therefore rather than being an attack on C21 style materialism, Jesus was asking them to sit loose to what for a C1 Jew was their slice of the Holy Land, promised by God to his Holy People. It would have been seen as a rather outrageous attack on C1 Israel's basic religious tenets. Jesus was changing religious ideas radically here.
Joseph of Arimathea remained a property owner, and Zacchaeus only gave away half (also minus restoration), so ownership wasn't seen as wrong as such. The same goes for the Greek churches which supported the poorer, rather than went for shared ownership.
(Matt 19:21) Jesus is challenging the general assumption that the rich would be part of God's Kingdom. Note the replacement of some of the ten commandments- this was more about an anti-idol instruction to avoid putting God in second place to money. It would have been person specific.
The OT restrictions on usury/interest would be part of the Torah that became optional after the resurrection.
The parable of the Talents (Matt 25) is an interesting one. The King (aka God) appears to commend the two who used silly interest rates/kneecapping/loan shark practices (that's how the story goes), and condemns the one who refuses to get involved.
(Long story short, it's about Jesus fulfilling God's return to Israel in judgement.)
Muslim banks can't do interest AFAIUI (Google "Riba Islam").
Jesus made several statements that seem to indicate that Christians shouldn't save their money. Are there any Christian groups that don't believe in saving money or don't use banks?
Quote:Matthew 6:19-21
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Quote:Matthew 19:21
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Quote:Luke 12:33
"Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys.
There are also many Old Testament verses about not charging fellow Hebrews usury. There are more verses against charging interest than there are about homosexuality being an abomination. If the number of verses influenced Christian politics than there would be mass protests against banks.
I don't know if there are similar verses in the Quran that seem to go against saving wealth. Are there Muslim groups that don't use banks?
Motivated believers are able to create work arounds and associated rationalizations for pretty much any divine command they want to abrogate.
Hence the Shabbat_elevator for devout Jews who "can't" operate machinery (switches) on certain days.
Quote:Sharia prohibits acceptance of specific interest or fees for loans of money (known as riba, or usury), whether the payment is fixed or floating. Investment in businesses that provide goods or services considered contrary to Islamic principles (e.g. pork or alcohol) is also haraam ("sinful and prohibited").
Quote:In an Islamic mortgage transaction, instead of lending the buyer money to purchase the item, a bank might buy the item itself from the seller, and re-sell it to the buyer at a profit,
See, no interest. All clear and above board.
Of course, the net effect is identical, but the participants can argue their cases at judgement.
And it allows Moslems to involve themselves in profit from finance where they would have been forbidden if they were consequentialists rather than divinely commanded.
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat?
April 26, 2015 at 4:52 pm (This post was last modified: April 26, 2015 at 4:55 pm by henryp.)
I've always felt this idea of not having wealth is the logical conclusion for both theists and most atheists.
I've said this before on here a couple times. Every decision you make with a dollar reflects your priorities. Do I spend a dollar on a pack of baseball cards, or donate it to some people who need it for food. If I pick the baseball cards, I am saying with my actions that it is more important for me to have baseball cards than for some other person to eat. And it's not like you can give away 5 dollars to feed 5 people, and spend the 6th dollar on baseball cards as a compromise, because the 6th dollar is still choosing baseball cards over a person. That choice will never change any time you are buying baseball cards.
It's a super harsh reality, but I always found it one of the more interesting ideas philosophically in the bible.
It's also an idea that ties into my new belief that people care about believing they are good rather than actually being good.
Jesus made several statements that seem to indicate that Christians shouldn't save their money. Are there any Christian groups that don't believe in saving money or don't use banks?
There are also many Old Testament verses about not charging fellow Hebrews usury. There are more verses against charging interest than there are about homosexuality being an abomination. If the number of verses influenced Christian politics than there would be mass protests against banks.
I don't know if there are similar verses in the Quran that seem to go against saving wealth. Are there Muslim groups that don't use banks?
Motivated believers are able to create work arounds and associated rationalizations for pretty much any divine command they want to abrogate.
Hence the Shabbat_elevator for devout Jews who "can't" operate machinery (switches) on certain days.
Quote:Sharia prohibits acceptance of specific interest or fees for loans of money (known as riba, or usury), whether the payment is fixed or floating. Investment in businesses that provide goods or services considered contrary to Islamic principles (e.g. pork or alcohol) is also haraam ("sinful and prohibited").
Quote:In an Islamic mortgage transaction, instead of lending the buyer money to purchase the item, a bank might buy the item itself from the seller, and re-sell it to the buyer at a profit,
See, no interest. All clear and above board.
Of course, the net effect is identical, but the participants can argue their cases at judgement.
And it allows Moslems to involve themselves in profit from finance where they would have been forbidden if they were consequentialists rather than divinely commanded.
That was fascinating. I knew that Islam didn't allow interest on loans but I didn't know how Muslim banks got around those rules
