(May 2, 2015 at 4:23 pm)Jenny A Wrote: What in the Bible?  The impossible creation stories (both of them).  The parts where god orders the Hebrews to commit genocide.  God's decision to kill a bunch of Egyptian babies...

I always appreciate someone who's read enough to realize there are in fact two creation traditions in Genesis 1 and 2. Slaughter and plunder celebrated in pompous texts (c.f. Joshua 8:24-29) was pretty standard fare; the Egyptians had such literature too, including their description of Thutmose III's battle at Megiddo (Urk. IV 645-669). Whether any actual genocides were ever completed in those days is doubtful: Ethnic cleansing seems a modern phenomenon; ancient regimes and their armies weren't really efficient enough to accomplish it, although they could kill everyone in a town after a siege.

War was horrible, of course, but less deadly than our modern secular wars fought with advanced equipment. In fact, Truman's order to drop the bomb on Hiroshima destroyed far more souls than the Hebrew war god Yahweh could ever claim in all his history.

(May 2, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Lek Wrote:

(May 1, 2015 at 1:25 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: How can you say that all has been fulfilled?  Has Jesus fulfilled the prophesy of the second coming?  Is it all done, and we are now with God, or in hell?  And has heaven and earth passed away yet?  Do you just ignore those bits?  Why did Jesus mention heaven and earth passing?  Was he just joking, and not to be taken seriously in what he stated?

I'm saying that he fulfilled the old testament law.  All prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.

...

In other words, you ignore Jesus' words about heaven and earth passing, and ALL being fulfilled.

Good to know where you stand on these things.

(May 2, 2015 at 10:33 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: In other words, you ignore Jesus' words about heaven and earth passing, and ALL being fulfilled.

Good to know where you stand on these things.

The law didn't go away, but Jesus fulfilled it for us.  When we have the Spirit of Christ, we are not under the law.

Romans 8:3-4 English Standard Version (ESV)
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 6:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

So the law still exists, but God imputes his righteousness to his followers, because Jesus has fulfilled the requirements of the law for us.

(May 2, 2015 at 10:59 pm)Lek Wrote:

(May 2, 2015 at 10:33 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: In other words, you ignore Jesus' words about heaven and earth passing, and ALL being fulfilled.

Good to know where you stand on these things.

The law didn't go away, but Jesus fulfilled it for us.  When we have the Spirit of Christ, we are not under the law.

Romans 8:3-4 English Standard Version (ESV)
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 6:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

So the law still exists, but God imputes his righteousness to his followers, because Jesus has fulfilled the requirements of the law for us.

What about the heaven and earth passing, which you over and over neglect to deal with.  Are the words of Jesus just a joke to you?

(May 2, 2015 at 11:01 pm)Pyrrho Wrote:

(May 2, 2015 at 10:59 pm)Lek Wrote: The law didn't go away, but Jesus fulfilled it for us.  When we have the Spirit of Christ, we are not under the law.

Romans 8:3-4 English Standard Version (ESV)
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 6:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

So the law still exists, but God imputes his righteousness to his followers, because Jesus has fulfilled the requirements of the law for us.

What about the heaven and earth passing, which you over and over neglect to deal with.  Are the words of Jesus just a joke to you?

Matthew 5:18 English Standard Version (ESV)
18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Heaven and earth has not passed away and the law is still valid, but Jesus' followers are not under it, because he has fulfilled it for us.

(May 2, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Lek Wrote:

(May 2, 2015 at 4:23 pm)Jenny A Wrote: What in the Bible?  The impossible creation stories (both of them).  The parts where god orders the Hebrews to commit genocide.  God's decision to kill a bunch of Egyptian babies.  The phrophets telling everyone that famine, and invasion are because they didn't pray to the right god?  How about the parts where it describes historically impossible events like the census the year Jesus was born?  Or where Joshua tells all about the conquering of the promised land with god's divine help and then in the next few books it's conquered all over non-miraculously?  Is is it the rules about killing women for being raped and absurd dietary laws. The utter incoherence of Revelations?  The forged letters of Paul?  The parts were Jesus says the kingdom of god on earth would be ruled by all twelve of the disciples (including Judas)?  The way each new Gospel gets more and more hostel to the Jews?

If you're saying that the bible doesn't paint God as a one-dimensional cream puff, then you're correct.  God is loving, but he also is just, jealous, angry and wrathful.  He is also the creator and knows what's best as applies to the big picture.  He is omniscient and understands the best course of action for those he created better than we do.    By the way, what is incoherent about the Book of Revelation?

No, the bible certainly does not paint god as a cream puff, more like a sadistic, homicidal, maniac.  And when he miraculously gave whole peoples into the Hebrew's hands he ordered genocide, not just allowed it, but required it.  And the reason? Well they happened to be sitting on the land he wanted to give the Hebrews.  It's ugly.  Very ugly.  And "he knows what's best," doesn't even begin to explain it. 

Quote:He has also given every person he created the option to be happy for eternity.  Obviously, in order to experience eternity joyfully, we first need to experience a baptism by fire because we are all touched by a world tainted by sin.

Doesn't seem the least bit obvious to me.  Nor does the "option" seem fair or reasonable.  Believe in me against all reason and live forever.  Use the brain I made for you and die in a pit of fire.  It's more like Russian Roulette than an option.

And who is supposed have created us and this "tainted" world?  Oh yeah, this god guy.

Quote:By the way, what is incoherent about the Book of Revelation?

 
Everything but the grammar which is why every other Christian thinks it means something different.

(April 25, 2015 at 11:53 pm)ObliviousCat Wrote: What is your evidence or what is your reason for believing what you believe in?

I believe in God for several reasons, most of which are philosophical in nature.  There are a few philosophical arguments for God, but the one I would like to talk about here is the cosmological argument.  In order to talk about this we must first understand the law of causality.  

Basically, the law of causality says that everything that had a beginning has a cause.  This is important because most scientists today will tell you that the universe began some 14 billion years ago.  Not too long ago most scientists would have held the belief that the universe was static and infinite.  Yet they found out what Christians have been saying for years, that the universe had a beginning.  This was not just a creation of matter as most people think of the big bang, but rather the beginning point for matter, space, and time.  Physicist P. C. W. Davies said it this way.

Quote:The coming-into-being of the universe, as discussed in modern science, is not just a matter of imposing some sort of organisation upon a previously incoherent state, but literally the coming into being of all physical things from nothing.

 

So in order for an atheist to stay consistent they must believe that the universe came from nothing, and by nothing, but this doesn't make any sense.  Out of nothing comes nothing.  You cannot have something come from nothing, because out of nothing, comes nothing.  So why does something exist, rather than nothing?  Surely there was some first cause.  This cause must be an uncaused, timeless, spaceless, personal being of unfathomable power.  

But why does this being have to be personal?  Well, the cause must be beyond space and time because space and time did not exist before this being created it.   There are only 2 things that meet this description.  Either and abstract idea like numbers or a personal mind.  But abstract ideas cannot create anything, therefore the being must be personal. 

This is the argument in a nutshell.  I have many other reasons. but this is the one of my favorite. 

No, the sceptic (which is what I presume you mean by atheist) generally says "I don't know where the universe came from".

The atheist does not necessarily even discount the possibility of a god, just that the atheist does not yet believe that there is a god.

The cosmological argument is flawed on almost every level, but in a general sense it is an attempt to use everyday logic to waltz through the hard barrier that 2000 years of science has come up against.

(May 2, 2015 at 11:11 pm)Lek Wrote:

(May 2, 2015 at 11:01 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: What about the heaven and earth passing, which you over and over neglect to deal with.  Are the words of Jesus just a joke to you?

Matthew 5:18 English Standard Version (ESV)
18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Heaven and earth has not passed away and the law is still valid, but Jesus' followers are not under it, because he has fulfilled it for us.

Why would Jesus say the stuff about heaven and earth passing, if, as you claim, it is totally irrelevant to what he was saying?  Does Jesus intentionally try to confuse people and mislead them into error?

(May 3, 2015 at 11:51 am)Pyrrho Wrote: Why would Jesus say the stuff about heaven and earth passing, if, as you claim, it is totally irrelevant to what he was saying?  Does Jesus intentionally try to confuse people and mislead them into error?

You can't just take an isolated verse and interpret it only in that light, which is why I brought up some other related verses. This is my interpretation, which I have come about through studying the whole bible. The bible clearly says that christians are not under the law and that's always been the belief of orthodox christianity. First of all, the old testament was given only to the Jews, through Moses at Mt Sinai, and Gentiles were never under that law. In Matthew, Jesus was speaking to the Jews who were still under the law. He was telling them that the law would always be valid for them as long as the earth existed. If they could follow the law, then they could be saved by that, but none of them could do that. Jesus was the only person who lived who followed the law perfectly and, therefore, fulfilled the requirements of the law. If the Jews followed him, they would be covered by his righteousness and be saved through him. If they didn't, then they would not be free from the law. The law will always exist until the end of the world, but those who follow Christ are not bound to it. We do have a moral code to live by, and if we follow Jesus, we will desire to live moral lives. If we don't desire to live morally, then we are not followers of Christ.