(May 18, 2015 at 9:28 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: If I understand Hume's position, it's an argument to the most likely hypothesis, a la Bayes.  I haven't finished Craig's paper but he seems to be arguing that assigning the probability of a miracle to be low in comparison to the alternatives is a form of begging the question.  I confess I have some sympathy for Craig's position.

Have you read Hume?  It is best to read him first, rather than reading a reply to him first.  You will then be in a better position to know whether the reply is misrepresenting Hume or not.

(May 17, 2015 at 7:32 pm)francismjenkins Wrote: Yeah but didn't pee wee get busted with his wee wee in his hand in a porn theater in NYC?

Isn't that what porn theaters are for?

I don't see WLC's position as much more than an argument from ignorance, you can't prove there aren't miracles. I would think most sceptics would not make the claim that there are no miracles. But unless WLC can offer any insight into how one would go about finding out what is a miracle and what isn't, his comments seem pretty useless to me. I mean what are we supposed to do, just believe people every so often that something is a miracle?

There is no current way to verify supernatural causation, so that seems to be the end of it. I don't know exactly what WLC would have us do.

Oh yeah, I would say I don't believe it happened. I would be extremely confident it didn't happen, and indeed I would be worried about anyone who said otherwise. I just don't feel comfortable making statements of absolute certainty about anything unless it is a clear case of logical contradiction.

I believe very strongly there are no such things as miracles. But again, I wouldn't personally like to claim I know there are no miracles, or to state that there are none. With anything unfalsifiable, I would say I have no reason to believe it is true but cannot know it is false. Making an absolute claim feels dishonest to me, and is also overreaching which makes you vulnerable to the kind of crap WLC likes to fling. Once someone finds out I'm not saying something is false, it tends to take the wind out of their sails.

That's interesting, I wonder what sceptics would say. When I say about denying miracles I mean in the strongest possible sense, not just a statement of belief. I'd fully expect any sceptic to believe there is no such thing as miracles.

Maybe we need a poll

I think my example (of flying around my bedroom) is a good one, because I am pretty sure that WLC would not be even slightly inclined to believe it either. And that is the thing, people don't apply the same principles to all miracle stories. Hume is trying to get people to do that, and not favor the stories one was raised to believe. Hume is also wanting people to think about how one should evaluate them, but part of what he is up to is trying to get people to apply the same standards to all miracle stories.

Also, Hume is not talking about a proof as being like a proof in geometry. He clearly means a more ordinary sort of thing, which is not giving absolute certainty.

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And how dare you question my integrity! If I say I fly around my bedroom every night, I do so!

(May 18, 2015 at 1:49 pm)abaris Wrote:

(May 17, 2015 at 7:32 pm)francismjenkins Wrote: Yeah but didn't pee wee get busted with his wee wee in his hand in a porn theater in NYC?

Isn't that what porn theaters are for?

Yeah, I'm still kind of pissed about that.  Some dude was watching a film of people have sex-- AND he was masturbating?  Who can even imagine?  And then to violate his privacy and run him through the media with a "leak"?  He should have sued for billions.

(May 18, 2015 at 6:50 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(May 18, 2015 at 1:49 pm)abaris Wrote: Isn't that what porn theaters are for?

Yeah, I'm still kind of pissed about that.  Some dude was watching a film of people have sex-- AND he was masturbating?  Who can even imagine?  And then to violate his privacy and run him through the media with a "leak"?  He should have sued for billions.

Agreed (like, why else would anyone visit a porn theater)