I can travel 30 miles in 20 minutes, order enough food for myself to feed a family of 4, and take a picture of it and instantly send it to my friend 1000 miles away.

We are not an accurate depiction of humanity throughout time.  This level of comfort is an aberration.  Oh look, the atheists live in the easiest comfiest place and time in the history of all species in the history of the earth, and they aren't hacking eachother up with axes! 

Muslims be hacking eachother up though!  Well, Muslims in the middle east that is.  Muslims in America have access to Cheesecake Factories, so 99.9999% of them aren't interested in beheadings any more than an atheist is.

(June 1, 2015 at 12:35 pm)wallym Wrote: I can travel 30 miles in 20 minutes, order enough food for myself to feed a family of 4, and take a picture of it and instantly send it to my friend 1000 miles away.

We are not an accurate depiction of humanity throughout time.  This level of comfort is an aberration.  Oh look, the atheists live in the easiest comfiest place and time in the history of all species in the history of the earth, and they aren't hacking eachother up with axes! 

Muslims be hacking eachother up though!  Well, Muslims in the middle east that is.  Muslims in America have access to Cheesecake Factories, so 99.9999% of them aren't interested in beheadings any more than an atheist is.

I think you just found the true answer to the question "why be good?"

I live in a world with cheese cake and sex. I have a much higher chance of getting those things for free when I am good. So...why be bad? 

One could easily answer the second question with "to earn myself a spanking", but let's be honest with ourselves, if you're being bad just to get someone to spank you...that actually counts as being good. 

(June 1, 2015 at 1:17 pm)Losty Wrote:

(June 1, 2015 at 12:35 pm)wallym Wrote: I can travel 30 miles in 20 minutes, order enough food for myself to feed a family of 4, and take a picture of it and instantly send it to my friend 1000 miles away.

We are not an accurate depiction of humanity throughout time.  This level of comfort is an aberration.  Oh look, the atheists live in the easiest comfiest place and time in the history of all species in the history of the earth, and they aren't hacking eachother up with axes! 

Muslims be hacking eachother up though!  Well, Muslims in the middle east that is.  Muslims in America have access to Cheesecake Factories, so 99.9999% of them aren't interested in beheadings any more than an atheist is.

I think you just found the true answer to the question "why be good?"

I live in a world with cheese cake and sex. I have a much higher chance of getting those things for free when I am good. So...why be bad? 

One could easily answer the second question with "to earn myself a spanking", but let's be honest with ourselves, if you're being bad just to get someone to spank you...that actually counts as being good. 

The problem of course, is what happens if we lose access to our cheesecake and sex?  When there's one potato and 3 hungry families who haven't eaten in a day.  Then 'being good' goes out the window, and we hack eachother up with axes.

That doesn't seem to be true.  It seems, rather, that our ability to cooperate -especially- in the leanest times is precisely why we have such wonderful access to cheesecake and sex in the here and now.  Do you think that people go apeshit the moment someone eats the last twinkie? We still manage to be decent while we starve - in case you were wondering...you've expressed an awfully dismal view of your fellow man here, pretty much the same shit as the "if no god, why be good". "if no food, why be good".

Same answers to both questions, same answers as if there is a god, or if there is food.

(June 1, 2015 at 4:42 pm)wallym Wrote: The problem of course, is what happens if we lose access to our cheesecake and sex?  When there's one potato and 3 hungry families who haven't eaten in a day.  Then 'being good' goes out the window, and we hack eachother up with axes.

Not according to the experts. 

In the 2014 book, "Social Dilemmas: Understanding Human Cooperation" 

Teaching and research Ph. D. sociologists Paul A.M. Lange, Daniel Balliet, Craig D. Parks, and evolutionary psychologist, Mark van Vugt make a case, that kind of proves you wrong. 

They have advanced degrees, decades of in field research, teaching positions at leading universities. What you got?

(May 29, 2015 at 10:12 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(May 29, 2015 at 9:47 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: When I've been a member of the forum for 30 days, I'm allowed to begin linking to reference material. And you can believe I will.

What a lame excuse:

Quote:One very important exception to the the 30/30 requirement is when external links/videos/images are used within discussion or with the intention of discussion. While we would generally advise new members who haven't met the 30/30 stipulations against posting threads with the sole intention of linking to an external site (whether advertising or not) or starting your own discussions based on external content, we do of course allow you to link to external sources when it is warranted. For instance you can post external content if using it as evidence in a discussion or you can post a YouTube video if it is relevant to an ongoing discussion.

http://atheistforums.org/rules.php

I thought so to, Jenny.

In fact, in a PM to several mods (including the big guy), I wrote:

Quote:Please explain how my link (which I can no longer see due to deletion, apparently) does not meet the following standard:

30/30 Exception
One very important exception to the the 30/30 requirement is when external links/videos/images are used within discussion or with the intention of discussion. While we would generally advise new members who haven't met the 30/30 stipulations against posting threads with the sole intention of linking to an external site (whether advertising or not) or starting your own discussions based on external content, we do of course allow you to link to external sources when it is warranted. For instance you can post external content if using it as evidence in a discussion or you can post a YouTube video if it is relevant to an ongoing discussion.

I'm more than willing to wait out the next three weeks in order to meet the 30/30 requirement before posting any more links, but why is this necessary? If my links are "evidence in a discussion", what is the problem? Seems like a judgment call and if so, shouldn't the benefit of the doubt go to the poster?

I was told that my posts were "spamming"...so they got me either way. I just decided to chill. My 30 days will be up soon.

The Rules also say:

Quote:Atheist Forums reserves the right to enforce the following rules as the staff sees fit. This disclaimer is for the sake of allowing the spirit of the rules to trump any literal interpretation of the rules. The wording of these rules is chosen to decrease the number of misinterpretations. However, they do arise and it is left to the staff to determine how to interpret the rules.

It's understandable if you missed it, being tucked away right at the top of the page.

Regardless of what you thought so too - note spelling - you aren't placed to interpret the Rules in their enforcement; we are and we have good reason to interpret them the way we have. I'm sorry you're not privy to the backstage deliberations.

(June 1, 2015 at 5:01 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(June 1, 2015 at 4:42 pm)wallym Wrote: The problem of course, is what happens if we lose access to our cheesecake and sex?  When there's one potato and 3 hungry families who haven't eaten in a day.  Then 'being good' goes out the window, and we hack eachother up with axes.

Not according to the experts. 

In the 2014 book, "Social Dilemmas: Understanding Human Cooperation" 

Teaching and research Ph. D. sociologists Paul A.M. Lange, Daniel Balliet, Craig D. Parks, and evolutionary psychologist, Mark van Vugt make a case, that kind of proves you wrong. 

They have advanced degrees, decades of in field research, teaching positions at leading universities. What you got?

An axe and the potato, by the sounds of it.

---

(June 1, 2015 at 4:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote: That doesn't seem to be true.  It seems, rather, that our ability to cooperate -especially- in the leanest times is precisely why we have such wonderful access to cheesecake and sex in the here and now.  Do you think that people go apeshit the moment someone eats the last twinkie?  We still manage to be decent while we starve - in case you were wondering...you've expressed an awfully dismal view of your fellow man here, pretty much the same shit as the "if no god, why be good".  "if no food, why be good".

Same answers to both questions, same answers as if there  is a god, or if there is food.

I don't really buy into the idea of 'being good' in general.  I'm skeptical of most things that tell me I shouldn't act in my own best interest because of some vague concept.  Seems like a trick to try and control me for someone elses' benefit.  I think Nationalism, God, and Being Good are in the same boat together. Not that nationalism, God, and 'being good' don't have some ideas that ARE in my best interest, but I'll need those ideas laid out rather than just saying GO USA, ALLAH, and SHARING!  Contrast with "Not Starving to Death" which I'm willing to go allin on.  That's an idea I can get behind 100%.

Of course, if we can work together in the leanest times to get by, by all means, go team us!  But what happens when that's not the case.  I would kill and eat you.  That's just how it is.  Maybe I'm alone in this.   Maybe you'll all graciously let yourself and your families die so that mine may live.  And I'd appreciate that.  But I would be using a different strategery.  I'm guessing all these people stockpiling guns are thinking along the same lines.  

You said this is a dismal view, but I don't think it's necessarily bad.  I wouldn't judge a lion for pulling some kind of cannibalistic bullshit.  It's not malicious, for example.  Just how the world works.  I think we have some better problem solving skills than a lion.  And obviously, a few thousand years of civilization has taken some of the edge off.  But I don't think it's so far gone.  I think it's percolating right under the surface waiting for shit to go down.  

As for where my opinion of people comes from...maybe doorbuster sales at Walmart after Thanksgiving?  People using social injustice as an excuse to grab a free cell phone in Baltimore.  Streaming game of thrones even though one could easily afford to pay for it.  Xenophobia.  Bombing/invading countries for oil.  Befriending terrible countries for oil.  Millionaires stealing even more millions from people who don't have much.  Plenty of murder and rape going around.  Gang violence.  Etc...  And this is in a pretty nice country in a time of Cheesecake and sex.  

If we go back a few hundo, or look elsewhere, we have fun things like mass slavery, genocide, absurd poverty, preventable starvation, huge wars, and on and on.  Look at good ole nazi germany.  "Hey, gas some jews or die."  - "Welp, guess I'm gassing some jews!"

The key component to much of human history being one person trampling on another person to get something they want.  Convert want to need, and all bets are off is my guess.   Although, smart people wrote a book that says something else, I've been told. 

(June 1, 2015 at 4:42 pm)wallym Wrote:

(June 1, 2015 at 1:17 pm)Losty Wrote: I think you just found the true answer to the question "why be good?"

I live in a world with cheese cake and sex. I have a much higher chance of getting those things for free when I am good. So...why be bad? 

One could easily answer the second question with "to earn myself a spanking", but let's be honest with ourselves, if you're being bad just to get someone to spank you...that actually counts as being good. 

The problem of course, is what happens if we lose access to our cheesecake and sex?  When there's one potato and 3 hungry families who haven't eaten in a day.  Then 'being good' goes out the window, and we hack eachother up with axes.

I actually disagree. I have seen people in desperation, hungry and homeless. In my experience, I have seen that people tend to come together with the most kindness and generosity when they are in these trying times. Sure, bad things happen but I honestly believe that on average people are naturally predisposed to be "good".

Quote:I don't really buy into the idea of 'being good' in general.  

Then I guess it's a good thing that you don't have to buy into it for you to express that as a ubiquitous human attribute, eh?

Quote:I'm skeptical of most things that tell me I shouldn't act in my own best interest because of some vague concept.  

Who tells you that, being good certainly doesnt tell you that, and you don't have to ignore your own best interests in order to be good(as you well know).  

Quote:Seems like a trick to try and control me for someone elses' benefit.  I think Nationalism, God, and Being Good are in the same boat together. 

Skullfucking babies, pushing old ladies into traffic...whats your score this week on either? Who is trying to trick you into being good, though, I wonder? Not that it isn't possible, def not making that claim, taking advantage of our better natures is a great way to manipulate us, perhaps it wouldn't be..if our better natures weren't so well developed and compelling? If you can get a person to believe that something they're doing is good...it doesnt matter how heinous that thing is, we'll trip over ourselves to get it done, eh?

Quote:Of course, if we can work together in the leanest times to get by, by all means, go team us!  But what happens when that's not the case.  I would kill and eat you.  That's just how it is.  Maybe I'm alone in this.

You might just be mistaken, rather than being the lone potential cannibal in the room.  Groups of people starve to death together without eating each other.  That's why instances of cannibalism-in-catastrophe are so sensational...they are rare. Just to be safe though, I'm putting you on my list, with the christians, of people I won't be turning my back on if we're lost in the woods. Happy now? :wink:

Quote:   Maybe you'll all graciously let yourself and your families die so that mine may live.  And I'd appreciate that.  But I would be using a different strategery.  I'm guessing all these people stockpiling guns are thinking along the same lines. 

I doubt that I'll ever find myself in a situation where I actually have to choose one over the other.   Many hands makes light work brutha!  Course..if I see you eyeballing my kids with a fork I'll hit you over the head with a brick and then bury you....so don't make me waste the meat. OTOH....I could use your corpse for dog bait, and then my kids would have food. We'll thank you for your service, as you would thank us for ours, rest assured.

Quote:You said this is a dismal view, but I don't think it's necessarily bad.  I wouldn't judge a lion for pulling some kind of cannibalistic bullshit. 

You are not a lion..neither am I.

Quote: It's not malicious, for example.  Just how the world works.  I think we have some better problem solving skills than a lion.  And obviously, a few thousand years of civilization has taken some of the edge off.  But I don't think it's so far gone.  I think it's percolating right under the surface waiting for shit to go down. 

You may think that, but the data just doesn't bear that out in this instance. 

Quote:As for where my opinion of people comes from...maybe doorbuster sales at Walmart after Thanksgiving?  People using social injustice as an excuse to grab a free cell phone in Baltimore.  Streaming game of thrones even though one could easily afford to pay for it.  Xenophobia.  Bombing/invading countries for oil.  Befriending terrible countries for oil.  Millionaires stealing even more millions from people who don't have much.  Plenty of murder and rape going around.  Gang violence.  Etc...  And this is in a pretty nice country in a time of Cheesecake and sex. 

Don't forget about the people running around switching the dyes in hair color bottles! 

Quote:If we go back a few hundo, or look elsewhere, we have fun things like mass slavery, genocide, absurd poverty, preventable starvation, huge wars, and on and on.  Look at good ole nazi germany.  "Hey, gas some jews or die."  - "Welp, guess I'm gassing some jews!"

Maybe you -are- alone in this after all.........is that something bubbling just beneath -your- surface? Seems to me that you might have left out the bit where a significant number of people took those dicks to task on that count. Just cautioning against this one sided appraisal of yours.

Quote:The key component to much of human history being one person trampling on another person to get something they want.  Convert want to need, and all bets are off is my guess.   Although, smart people wrote a book that says something else, I've been told. 

Oh ffs.....if you're going to say that at least be a bit more accurate, we trample -other- groups -as a group-.  Cooperative competition..lol. Maybe you should stop worrying, and learn to love the bomb?