(June 4, 2015 at 10:19 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: This just shows how incomplete your understanding of God and Christianity really is, Simon.

You, and all your co-no-religionists need to hear this well:

It is not certain at all that you will be sent to hell forever just because you are an atheist; God in His infinite wisdom judges you based upon ALL of the facts of your individual life. He knows why you think as you do better than you do.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:






Now, I can't gloss over the fact that you are NOT seeking God per se, but in that you may be trying to do (what is actually His will) known to you only by the dictates of your own conscience, you may be saved.

Notice the word, "may". The door is not closed, Simon. It's a tiny crack, but it's there. Personally, I wouldn't want to trust in this tiny loophole, but God is both infinitely just AND infinitely merciful. He made you and knows why you think as you do.

You may be less culpable for your actions than I am.

1. He's right you know your religion is simply not good it never was and it never will be. The bible has done nothing more in history along with abrahamic books to cause mass killing slavery etc and the darkest part of humanity and ignorance to even survive in the modern age. To even dare say our understanding of your religion to be incomplete is utter ignorance of what religion truly is a fucking death cult that worships death.

2. If god is infinity merciful the bastard should said oh i forgive your original sin instead of punishing you like a alcoholic shitty parent who beats their child. 

(June 4, 2015 at 10:19 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Now, I can't gloss over the fact that you are NOT seeking God per se, but in that you may be trying to do (what is actually His will) known to you only by the dictates of your own conscience, you may be saved.

Notice the word, "may". The door is not closed, Simon. It's a tiny crack, but it's there. Personally, I wouldn't want to trust in this tiny loophole, but God is both infinitely just AND infinitely merciful. He made you and knows why you think as you do. You need to see the word "and" in there, too. The passage speaks of those who "seek God AND moved by grace, try...".

Have you considered a career in the lucrative field of used auto sales?

Because you've got talent at it, no doubt.

(June 4, 2015 at 11:53 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 10:19 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Now, I can't gloss over the fact that you are NOT seeking God per se, but in that you may be trying to do (what is actually His will) known to you only by the dictates of your own conscience, you may be saved.

Notice the word, "may". The door is not closed, Simon. It's a tiny crack, but it's there. Personally, I wouldn't want to trust in this tiny loophole, but God is both infinitely just AND infinitely merciful. He made you and knows why you think as you do. You need to see the word "and" in there, too. The passage speaks of those who "seek God AND moved by grace, try...".

Have you considered a career in the lucrative field of used auto sales?

Because you've got talent at it, no doubt.

Yeah, except we can prove cars... you know... exist.

(June 4, 2015 at 11:59 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 11:53 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Have you considered a career in the lucrative field of used auto sales?

Because you've got talent at it, no doubt.

Yeah, except we can prove cars... you know... exist.

No wonder why i have such a bad time trying to sell invisible pink flying elephants. 

(June 4, 2015 at 11:59 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 11:53 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Have you considered a career in the lucrative field of used auto sales?

Because you've got talent at it, no doubt.

Yeah, except we can prove cars... you know... exist.

Yabut he could convince you that that Yugo still has a couple hundred thousand miles left in it ... or at least he thinks he could.

---

(June 5, 2015 at 12:03 am)dyresand Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 11:59 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Yeah, except we can prove cars... you know... exist.

No wonder why i have such a bad time trying to sell invisible pink flying elephants. 

Have you considered door-to-door salesmen asking for donations and attendance?

(June 4, 2015 at 5:18 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 1:57 pm)wallym Wrote: As for calling someone a terrible human being, the standard exists.

What standard?  You yourself reject moral claims. What is your standard for calling someone "terrible"? Perhaps a person is "terrible" if they refuse to let you use them?  Perhaps a person is terrible if they harm you directly?

You have some basis for judgement, right? Lay it out.

(June 4, 2015 at 1:57 pm)wallym Wrote:  My interest in letting the standard dictate my behavior doesn't change the existing of the standard.  You guys have your community here, and maybe he's the loveable racist grandma character of the forum.  I dunno why people seem okay with his over-the-top rage and hatefulness.

Setting aside for the moment that he and I have disagreed vociferously on his bigotry towards Muslims, the fact is that you're appealing to some nebulous "standard" in supporting your judgement, but you're not saying what that standard is. Certainly it has a moral dimension, otherwise you wouldn't be squirming so much when the question is put to you.

So I'm going to put the question to you again, with the expectation that this time you will provide a direct answer: How can you judge anyone terrible when you reject morality?

---

(June 4, 2015 at 3:35 pm)wallym Wrote: For sure, my calling someone a terrible human being has no impact.  Nothing is important because I say it.  The only thing that would make it relevant is its accuracy.    

And what is your metric for accuracy? What is your yardstick? And how can an amoralist have any yardstick at all to make such a pronouncement?

I submit that you haven't thought your position out in nearly the detail required for this discussion. You're busy castigating someone else for their behavior even as you state that the only rule of thumb for your behavior is how things benefit you.  The only reconciliation of this contradiction is that you think another person is terrible because they will not allow you to use them.

I'm not following.  I would judge myself to be not that great a person according to society as well.  Society's standards aren't based on my behavior.  I believe the post was relating the way I was being judged to some of the groups habit of being mean to theists.  I found it a bit hypocritical, or more interestingly that maybe people just think they think one way, but based on their behavior probably think another without realizing it.  I believe the example I used later was a Catholic who doesn't go to church probably doesn't really believe in Catholicism, they just haven't realized it.  I find a lot of people's behavior fits pretty well with what I describe for myself.  

The part with Minimalist, was highlighting something you said at the end.  I was differentiating specifically between "how things benefit me" vs. "being aggressively hateful."  Someone said I couldn't be their facebook friend, and I was trying to say I'm not THAT evil pointing out that I am not malicious.  Perhaps that's a caveat of my thinking that was skipped over.  All things being equal, I'd just assume everyone be happy.  An easy example is Gay Marriage.  I don't care if gay people get married.  I've voted on it, and I voted in support of it, because what do I care?  If the vote loses, oh well.  I think it's dumb for people to oppose it, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

As has been said, there is a lot of overlap in what's 'good' for society and what's good for the individual.  That's, in my theory, why so many people might be mistaking their motivations for altruistic rather than self-centered.  

What else...Ah, judging people.  From my selfish perspective, Minimalist is bad to me because the caustic attitude is off-putting and creates a bad environment for discussion, which is why I'm here.  I'm also not a fan of bigotry and mean-spiritedness in general as I think they are bad for the society that I have to live in.  

On the flipside, from his perspective, he isn't obligated to give a fuck if I don't like his attitude.  If shitting on theists makes him happy, keep on shitting on those theists.  He has no reason to be invested in my experience using this forum.  I'm just some asshole, afterall.

But I don't think I would use my perspective in talking to people who don't share my perspective.  I'd try to use a more universal yardstick, that they would relate to.  Especially in this case when it was in reference to the judgement being passed by someone else.

So in the end, I can think you're terrible with my own 'selfish' yardstick, and societal yardstick.  But I don't think you should have to care. 

It's pretty convoluted.  You're definitely right that I haven't thought out my position fully.  May never, who knows.  It is not a mistake that my posts ramble all over the place. Half this stuff I think for the first time as I'm typing it.  That's why I'm here.  If I had it all figured out, I'd be thinking about something else.  For me, this isn't about trying to relive the glory years of junior high debate club.  I'm just interested in gaining information.

(June 4, 2015 at 8:31 pm)Cinjin Wrote:

(May 26, 2015 at 7:29 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: If there is no God, then there is no hell; and if there is no hell, then there are no ultimate, eternal repercussions, good or bad, for how we live out our mortal lives. Of course, atheists insist that people should be "good without God."

But why? If God does not exist, why be good?

Where is your authority to claim that if a god doesn't exist than there is no eternal repercussions?  
Says who?  You?  Who are you again?

As far as I'm aware, atheism means no belief in a god.  True, most atheists don't believe in any form of afterlife, but I have met a small few who are open to the idea of an afterlife without god.  

My only point here is that you created a non-sequitur in your OP simply by assigning the afterlife to a god.  There are many, both believer and non believer who would dispute your small mindedness and your unsupported assertion.  

I brought up this exact point many pages ago and it was ignored. The premise makes no sense.

(June 5, 2015 at 12:03 am)dyresand Wrote: No wonder why i have such a bad time trying to sell invisible pink flying elephants. 

Stay out of my lane
As far as I know I'm the only pink invisible incorporeal magic dragon breeder around here and this is my territory

(June 4, 2015 at 10:19 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: [...]One other point, it is still uncertain whether you will actually die as an atheist even if you are living as one now. An act of contrition said with one's final breath has saved many a soul, I have no doubt.

Oh, right - the famous christian loop-hole, where you can mutter a magic spell, just before you die and you get to meet Hitler, Stalin, John Wayne Gacy, or whoever else had the same idea - in heaven. 

Heh - good luck with that. Although I doubt you are stupid enough to actually believe that. Deep down you just enjoy telling tall-tales of redemption to infidels, while envisioning their inevitable eternal punishment. Or do you really expect us to believe, that you're fine with the vision of the afterlife, where you can go to hell, if you die suddenly because of a sin you haven't had time to repent for (let's say - your adulterous lover murders you during the act), while your murderer goes to heaven, if they happened to feel really, really sorry about it later in their long natural life - even just before death? Yeah, right...

You're selling god's forgiveness and mercy, as if they were  yours to grant. You should perhaps worry about your own fate and prepare your own sniveling death-bed apology.

(June 5, 2015 at 3:41 am)Neimenovic Wrote:

(June 5, 2015 at 12:03 am)dyresand Wrote: No wonder why i have such a bad time trying to sell invisible pink flying elephants. 

Stay out of my lane
As far as I know I'm the only pink invisible incorporeal magic dragon breeder around here and this is my territory

Take it easy i am selling pink invisible A1 Abrams now because murica.