(June 11, 2015 at 8:51 am)SteveII Wrote: According to the Christian THEORY (since I don't need to be certain of anything to have a theory, I just need some evidence that agrees with my conclusions) God has interacted with our reality (not meant to be an exhaustive list):

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1) The universe had a cause
2) Life exists
3) Complex biological systems exist

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4) The ancient Jews interacted with God quite a bit

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5) Jesus came, ministered, performed miracles, died, and was resurrected
6) Miracles still happen
7) There is a god-shaped hole in everyone's psychology
8) The "inter-witness of the Holy Spirit" (there, that should get all the WLC fans going)

Of course you will pick apart each one as "you can't prove..." and "baseless assertions". I don't have to prove them, just like evolution, the mountain of evidence I have points to a probabilistic conclusion that the God of Christianity exists. Until I am presented with a theory that answers all of these questions with a different answer, that is what I choose to believe.

Despite the vitriol that is sure to come, this is not an unreasonable THEORY--much like believing in evolutionary theory is not unreasonable.

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Are there any Jewish fairy tales some people won't believe?

(June 11, 2015 at 6:09 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 11, 2015 at 5:57 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Science is a set of very successful methods for determining the truth about the real world.  Scientists have made great progress using the scientific method both in understanding and technology.  But scientists have not answered all questions and there are questions they will never answer.  And it is better to know that you do not have an answer than to pretend that you do.

And it is your contention that Christians are pretending to have answers that they do not really have.  Is it possible that they have a few to those questions that science will never answer?

Pretending may be too strong a word.  But yes, Christians claim to have answers, such as god exists, that they have no real evidence for.  They claim knowledge that they have not.  That they really believe such claims, does not make them correct.

You know, every few weeks or months I get a moment of sharp, horrifying clarity. My thoughts all coalesce and crystallise in just the right way, and I realise...
Holy fucking hell, people ACTUALLY BELIEVE THIS BULLSHIT.

This thread has triggered one such episode. I shall now go and stare at a wall and muse upon the frighteningly real possibility that human stupidity is, in fact, infinite.

(June 11, 2015 at 10:34 am)dyresand Wrote:

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(June 11, 2015 at 10:21 am)Anima Wrote: I am sorry.  Are you trying to provide a definition for an unknown thing to say it is not something?  That would be one amazing feat.  While you may provide the minimum aspect or function of said thing (counteracts gravitational force), since it unknown you cannot state the limit or extent of that thing or what the thing is.  To do so is to presuppose what the thing is (which I understand is bigot thing that only Christians do.)

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What i am trying to say is dark energy/matter is a thing. We know its there because we know the universe expands. The stars galaxies that NASA takes pictures of isn't even there anymore. Rather the light from said galaxies are reaching us and giving us a peek into what was there at that point. To explain that a bit better, distance in a vacuum that being said stars in the night sky when you look up might not even be there anymore because light and information takes light years to reach us. So those galaxies nasa has taken pictures off aren't even there anymore due to expansion. Stars and other formations more than likely gone. That being said when they do reach there eventual collapse and go supernova and or collapses into itself turning into a black hole. We will still see a star but once again it would take billions of light years for new information and or light to reach us.

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Dark matter is an idea cooked up by a nut.  There's zero evidence that it exists and it certainly doesn't exist in our solar system or within its celestial neighborhood.

Just one of many articles debunking the dark matter BS.
http://www.space.com/4554-scientists-dar...exist.html

Quote:Oh, general idiocy.

Yeah, I overlooked that. Never mind. 

How is pointing out the fallacies that Kalam contains idiocy?

It's not our fault if you are unable to see them. 

After all, you think Pascal's Wager is legitimate. 

(June 11, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: But science provides the answers to everything...so, a question that science cannot answer is a nonsensical question.

If science is all-powerful, can it make a rock so big that even it can't lift it?

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You're constantly arguing the god of the gaps argument without even knowing it. It's as old as humanity and therefore fails to impress. In the olden days, folks looked up to the sky and saw the sun. They didn't know what it was and so the called it a god. They saw the moon and didn't know what it was and called it a god. They saw lightning and didn't know what it was, so it had to be an enraged god.

Today we know a whole lot more. The fact that we don't know everything doesn't mean there's a god required. It only means, we don't know - yet.

(June 11, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Oh, good.

You've done this before. 

That means the two of you should be able to provide really clear, concise refutations.

Please do.

We've done them all before, Randy.  You have, literally, brought nothing new to the table here.

(June 11, 2015 at 5:36 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote:

(June 11, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: But one question: What is your evidence for your claim that God began?

What is your evidence the universe did?

I'm no expert, but the following information is easily found with Google:

The Second Law of Thermodynamics suggests that the universe is running out of energy and that a universe which had no beginning would have run out of energy already.

 
Additionally, three leading cosmologists, Arvind Borde, Alan Guth and Alexander Vilenkin, have proved that any universe which has, on average, been expanding throughout its history, cannot be eternal in the past but must have an absolute beginning. This also applies to multiverses – if there is such a thing. Vilenkin said,
 
“This means that scientists “can no longer hide behind a past eternal-universe. There is no escape; they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning.”

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(June 11, 2015 at 6:23 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(June 11, 2015 at 6:09 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: And it is your contention that Christians are pretending to have answers that they do not really have.  Is it possible that they have a few to those questions that science will never answer?

Pretending may be too strong a word.  But yes, Christians claim to have answers, such as god exists, that they have no real evidence for.  They claim knowledge that they have not.  That they really believe such claims, does not make them correct.

Jenny-

If you had met God, would you think differently?

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(June 11, 2015 at 6:59 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:

(June 11, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Oh, good.

You've done this before. 

That means the two of you should be able to provide really clear, concise refutations.

Please do.

We've done them all before, Randy.  You have, literally, brought nothing new to the table here.

I did not expect to. I wanted to see the reaction.

I'm here to learn how atheists think an what your arguments and objections are.

(June 11, 2015 at 6:09 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 11, 2015 at 5:36 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote: What is your evidence the universe did?

Ok, Randy. I'll pay your game, though it does get tiresome when you keep expecting answers when you won't give any.

(June 11, 2015 at 6:09 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Is the universe infinite?

Dunno. Beyond the visible universe, I believe it is fair to assume there is more than what we see. If it's infinite is something currently unknowable.

(June 11, 2015 at 6:09 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: What is a singularity?

A region where spacetime curvature becomes infinite, such as the center of a black hole.
More on the subject.

(June 11, 2015 at 6:09 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Was all matter compressed into a space smaller than the size of a sub-atomic particle?

Not sure about that definition, but a very high density state, yes. That is what the Big Bang theory proposes.

(June 11, 2015 at 6:09 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: What caused it to change?

Now you're talking about cause and effect before spacetime as we understand it even exists. Quantum Mechanics suggest that under certain circumstances effect can precede cause. There are competing hypothesis concerning why expansion got started. There are no firm answers.

Now, care to answer my question? Retracted.

(June 11, 2015 at 7:15 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Jenny-

If you had met God, would you think differently

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You're exactly using the same speech modules every theist before you has used without actually answering anything.

I told you before, if you were to introduce this pure spirit being to me, I might reconsider, to which you gave an empty from stock reply of this being making itself known. Heard that one before about a million times, so yawn, yawn, triple yawn.

Also I see, you didn't find the god of the gaps argument worthy of a reply. Too complicated for you or just the usual copping out stunt?