I'm pretty sure most transgender people are more scared of us than you are of their bits.

Context here, trans people are questioned, gossiped about, oggled, fetishized, harassed, sexually assaulted, beaten up and murdered. The murder rate for transgender people is an absolute disgrace. This isn't The Hangover, this is real life, trans people are not going to trust anyone they've just met to invite back to their place for a quickie. I imagine it's a life of being contantly on the look out for danger.

In short, they're waaaay more worried about what you might do to them, than you are about what's in their pants.

(June 14, 2015 at 8:05 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: You keep coming back to it like it fucking matters one bit, though. It's been your go to argument from the first. Like "for this reason, we shouldn't consider these people women." Disclosure is required for all people, if you have something to disclose. It doesn't matter what sex or gender you are.

We shouldn't consider them women, because they aren't women.  And we shouldn't redefine the word "woman," because it has a perfectly clear meaning already: a woman is an adult who was born with a vagina.  If a man wants to be called "Caitlyn," that's fine with me.  If he wants to be referred to as "she," that's fine with me.  But male is not female, and black is not white.

Disclosure is required IF you have something to disclose.  So if you are a woman, and you are with a man who expects to have sex with a woman, why would you need to disclose your penis?  Because it's the defining trait of manhood.

(June 14, 2015 at 8:20 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: I'm pretty sure most transgender people are more scared of us than you are of their bits.

Context here, trans people are questioned, gossiped about, oggled, fetishized, harassed, sexually assaulted, beaten up and murdered. The murder rate for transgender people is an absolute disgrace. This isn't The Hangover, this is real life, trans people are not going to trust anyone they've just met to invite back to their place for a quickie. I imagine it's a life of being contantly on the look out for danger.

In short, they're waaaay more worried about what you might do to them, than you are about what's in their pants.

I'm sympathetic to the social issues surrounding transexuals.  Nobody should be hated for what they are, or belittled for not conforming to stereotyped roles.  Nobody should be in physical danger because they are different.  My argument is not with the people-- it's with the process of definition, and the implications that process has on acceptable behaviors.  I don't think it's okay for a white woman to lie to pretend she's back, and then engage in a career in black studies under that pretense.

(June 14, 2015 at 8:28 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(June 14, 2015 at 8:05 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: You keep coming back to it like it fucking matters one bit, though. It's been your go to argument from the first. Like "for this reason, we shouldn't consider these people women." Disclosure is required for all people, if you have something to disclose. It doesn't matter what sex or gender you are.

We shouldn't consider them women, because they aren't women.  And we shouldn't redefine the word "woman," because it has a perfectly clear meaning already: a woman is an adult who was born with a vagina.  If a man wants to be called "Caitlyn," that's fine with me.  If he wants to be referred to as "she," that's fine with me.  But male is not female, and black is not white.

Good luck holding on to that definition. Definitions change as we learn new things. As we catalogue and learn new things about gender dysmorphia, we are learning that gender has nothing to do with your reproductive organs, and everything to do with your brain chemistry and pathways. So a woman is an adult person whose brain is wired like a woman, whose brain tells her she is a woman. I'm sorry you don't accept the more refined difference between gender and sex.

(June 14, 2015 at 8:28 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Disclosure is required IF you have something to disclose. 

That's exactly what I said.

(June 14, 2015 at 8:28 pm)bennyboy Wrote: So if you are a woman, and you are with a man who expects to have sex with a woman, why would you need to disclose your penis?  Because it's the defining trait of manhood.

What? Did you even read this? Have you paid attention to anything anyone has said about gender and sex? Why do you keep clinging to this infantile bullshit? It is immediately obvious that you are only reading one or two lines of these posts.

A transgender woman is VERY AWARE THAT THEY HAVE A PENIS. Why do you think just because they are a woman that they aren't aware of or are predisposed to hide their male sex? Are you just entrenched here, and don't want to admit you're wrong?

Seems like Thump is right. I thought you were better than this childish tripe.

(June 14, 2015 at 8:17 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: I'm not sure who died and vacated the position of spokesman for all men, but I'm pretty sure you ain't the new nominee. I really don't care what you think is "obvious" based on your own personal feelings, because that is simply you projecting your own feelings onto other men.

Why do you keep fucking putting words in my mouth? Did I say I speak for all men? No. I believe MANY men would be traumatized by an unexpected last-minute reveal. Yes, I'm one of them. And I've heard many others say similar things.

Go out into the street and ask a couple hundred random men if they would be traumatized if in a sexual situation, their supposedly female date whipped out her penis. If you think the percent who would answer yes is non-zero, or trivially small, then I think you're deluded. But until that is actually done, then I'm perfectly aware that I could be wrong. Maybe the majority would say something like, "Traumatized? Nah. I'd just get the hell outta there." Based on how I've seen many men act, I believe the average reaction would be stronger than that.

Quote:It's cool, I've seen thousands like you online over the years. The only surprise to me is that I had you pegged wrongly; I had thought that as a reasonable person, you could admit error when it has been demonstrated. Instead, you assert lying on the part of your interlocutor.  It's all good ... but I know better about you, now.

I never really accused you of lying. I said I think you're lying, because it's so apparent to me that many men would find a late reveal traumatizing that I can't see how anyone would not believe that to be the case. But I also said I could be wrong, and that we should attempt research. If it turns out that the majority of men wouldn't be traumatized by a late reveal, then I would learn a lot of interesting things: 1) some people legitimately believe what you're saying, and you are not just claiming so for argument's sake; 2) my own ideas don't represent the norm; 3) a transwoman may not actually be committing a serious offense by not telling a potential partner about her penis before she gets into an encounter.

I'm open to that possibility. I just don't think it represents reality.

Quote:Once more, backpedalling without acknowledgement. You should own your mistakes.

I can fully and comfortably acknowledge that it's backpedalling. The sexual comments were in support of an idea-- and I care more about that idea than about debating exactly what constitutes rape, sexual assault, or just bad manners. I don't need late reveals to be rape, or even assault, to make my point: that defining one's self as something does not make one that thing.

I think most men faced with a last minute reveal would at the very least say, "If you're a woman, why do you have a penis?" You guys are making it out like this would be an unfair and prejudicial question: why ask, if a person with a penis is a woman just because that's how they identify?

I think most people, upon discovering that a woman, who is not adopted, has two parents so white they gleam in the sun, would ask, "In what sense can you be said to be 'colored' except for the fact that you apply tanning cream?" Why ask, if identifying as black is sufficient to BE black?

(June 14, 2015 at 8:39 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(June 14, 2015 at 8:28 pm)bennyboy Wrote: So if you are a woman, and you are with a man who expects to have sex with a woman, why would you need to disclose your penis?  Because it's the defining trait of manhood.

What? Did you even read this? Have you paid attention to anything anyone has said about gender and sex? Why do you keep clinging to this infantile bullshit? It is immediately obvious that you are only reading one or two lines of these posts.

A transgender woman is VERY AWARE THAT THEY HAVE A PENIS. Why do you think just because they are a woman that they aren't aware of or are predisposed to hide their male sex? Are you just entrenched here, and don't want to admit you're wrong?

Seems like Thump is right. I thought you were better than this childish tripe.

That's a lot of social rage and insults from a person who hasn't answered the question. If a woman is biologically female, she doesn't have to disclose, but if a transgender woman has a penis, she should disclose that fact before sex, right? That's because they aren't the same thing.

And I have read all the lines of all the posts. I've already acknowledged (right up front) brain differences, hormonal differences, developmental differences in the womb, etc. I've already acknowledged that transgender people should be treated with respect, including use of pronouns. But the idea that a woman is worried about people seeing her penis is because she doesn't want people to know that she's at least partly a man in biological terms. She is not equivalent to a natural-born woman.

I'm fine with treating people humanely. I'm not fine with ignoring reality.

(June 14, 2015 at 9:13 pm)bennyboy Wrote: That's a lot of social rage and insults from a person who hasn't answered the question. If a woman is biologically female, she doesn't have to disclose, but if a transgender woman has a penis, she should disclose that fact before sex, right? That's because they aren't the same thing.

I have answered the question. Twice. And I have said they aren't the same thing. Like 4 times. This is why I come to the conclusion that you aren't reading past the first line.

(June 14, 2015 at 9:13 pm)bennyboy Wrote: But the idea that a woman is worried about people seeing her penis is because she doesn't want people to know that she's at least partly a man in biological terms. She is not equivalent to a natural-born woman.

You keep saying this. Where are all these ashamed trans women trying to hide their penises? This is what I have an issue with. You have created this trans woman who is ashamed of her penis and is trying to hide it and trick everyone, and you have presented it as if this is the standard for trans people. Where is this woman, and why do you think this is indicative of trans people in general? This has been my issue all along. You are stuck on this strawman of a transgender person that is no more uncommon than the average asshole.

Don't we all "hide" our naughty bits? I'm about as stacked as kitten heels, but I imagine that if I walked down the street topless, I'd get a few looks, and maybe arrested.

Sorry; Benny, I'm just a little baffled. You say you support people identifying with who they feel they are, but then you get all wrapped up in semantics and the "late reveal". What point are you trying to make? I feel like it's gotten lost...

(June 14, 2015 at 10:04 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: You keep saying this. Where are all these ashamed trans women trying to hide their penises?

I. Never. Said. That.

Seriously, go look at it. Someone said it, but wasn't me. Show one time of the many times you cliam I "keep saying this," where I said that trans women are trying to hide their penises. People don't normally show their private parts before sex. My issue has been with a last minute reveal-- specifically that while a woman doesn't have to disclose the status of her private bits before sex, a transwoman does. And that's because the two are not equivalent.

You. Literally. Said. It. Two. Sentences. Later.

When I say "hide their penises," I'm not talking about tucking. I am talking about hiding the fact that they have a penis. And you keep reading the first line and ignoring everything afterwards.

I'll quote myself so you don't have to scroll up to read it again. Look at the links where I point out that no one has said that a transgender and cisgender woman are physically the same. Read past the first sentence that you quoted in the second paragraph, where I ask where all these women you have encountered that are looking to do this "last minute reveal" (hiding the fact that they have a penis) and why you think that this is something that transgender women are apt to do. You are so hung up on the last minute reveal, but you are just projecting some strawman that doesn't exist in reality.

(June 14, 2015 at 10:04 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: I have answered the question. Twice. And I have said they aren't the same thing. Like 4 times. This is why I come to the conclusion that you aren't reading past the first line.

(June 14, 2015 at 9:13 pm)bennyboy Wrote: But the idea that a woman is worried about people seeing her penis is because she doesn't want people to know that she's at least partly a man in biological terms. She is not equivalent to a natural-born woman.

You keep saying this. Where are all these ashamed trans women trying to hide their penises? This is what I have an issue with. You have created this trans woman who is ashamed of her penis and is trying to hide it and trick everyone, and you have presented it as if this is the standard for trans people. Where is this woman, and why do you think this is indicative of trans people in general? This has been my issue all along. You are stuck on this strawman of a transgender person that is no more uncommon than the average asshole.