The right to mis-define oneself

[bennyboy]

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/12/opinio...index.html

"In this day and age who in the world willingly wants to be black?"
I jokingly said that to my husband when news about Rachel Dolezal broke.
Dolezal, 37, is president of the Spokane, Washington, chapter of the NAACP whose racial identity is being questioned, now that her parents have produced what they say is her birth certificate. It appears to show that she is white.
They said their daughter, who reportedly earned a master's degree from the historically black Howard University in Washington, D.C., and is a professor of Africana Studies at Eastern Washington University, began to "disguise herself" as black after the family adopted four African-American children.
Don't get me wrong, I am a proud black woman who grew up in a family that is incredibly diverse and has such a heritage of hues that my parents were once questioned in a store as to where they "got that white baby from," as they carted around my fair-skinned and light-eyed infant nephew.


But with all the heated debate over race relations and the treatment of minorities by law enforcement, which has resulted in unrest and more than a few black mothers burying their sons and daughters, I was both flabbergasted and intrigued by any claim that a white woman would willingly pass as black.

Race isn't necessarily skin color

The concept of "passing" is something many African-Americans are familiar with. Some members of my own family were so light-skinned, with European features, that they willingly chose to live as white rather than deal with the discrimination of being black in America.
My mother, Patricia, who is fair and has greenish-gray eyes, tells the story of when her grandmother arrived at the bank where my mother worked after it closed. My biracial great-grandmother, Rose Evans, knocked on the window as my mother stood next to her white co-worker, counting out their drawer.
"There's a woman trying to get your attention," the co-worker told my mother.
When my mother responded "I know. That's just my grandmother," the co-worker continued: "No. There's a white woman trying to get your attention." "No. That's my grandmother," my mother repeated as her co-worker turned bright red with embarrassment.
The truth of the matter is that when it comes to race, you just can't tell from looking.
One of my closest friends, Jill Hudson, is a stunning woman and the product of two African-American parents. Yet she is so light, with straight hair, that when I excitedly shared with Baltimore Sun co-workers that "a new, black reporter" had been hired to cover police in Howard County, I was asked, when she showed up for her first day on the job: "Where is the new black reporter?"

Am I the only one who thinks people saying "I identify as X, therefore I am X" is bullshit?  Can I identify as a handicapped native lesbian elderly woman if I want to?

[VeggieDog]

I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

[bennyboy]

I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

So is Bruce Jenner.

[Lemonvariable72]

With this article and point it brings up, there is validity. For example, many native people that live near me, you wouldn't know they're native till they talked, or even told you if they live closer to the city.

[henryp]

I'm definitely in the skeptical party that feels like we're being mandated to play pretend. Bruce Jenner, for example, wants us to call him a her named Caitlyn. Sure, whatever. I don't give a shit. But us all pretending he's a woman doesn't make him a woman in my mind.

And here, I'm not pretending, which is why I'm using the wrong pronouns, which would get me labeled transphobic, which is silly. I think the the obligation of others to 'play along' is an interesting social issue.

Perhaps my problem is that I'm pretty loose in my views of gender roles. If you're a male who wants to wear a dress, go for it. If you want to get fake tits, and get some type of vagina thing going, that's fine too. Which complicates the transgender issue, because all that's left in my mind for what defines gender is the scientific assignment of sex.

So when Bruce says he wants to be Caitlyn, nothing about Caitlyn is anything I would deem as necessary to identify as a female to do. It's all just superficial.

[Longhorn]

I'm definitely in the skeptical party that feels like we're being mandated to play pretend. Bruce Jenner, for example, wants us to call him a her named Caitlyn. Sure, whatever. I don't give a shit. But us all pretending he's a woman doesn't make him a woman in my mind.

Except psychologically, Caitlyn/Bruce is a woman

And here, I'm not pretending, which is why I'm using the wrong pronouns, which would get me labeled transphobic, which is silly. I think the the obligation of others to 'play along' is an interesting social issue.

Play along? Tbh it's more about getting people you care about to recognize your true self and I don't see why anybody wouldn't want that

Perhaps my problem is that I'm pretty loose in my views of gender roles. If you're a male who wants to wear a dress, go for it. If you want to get fake tits, and get some type of vagina thing going, that's fine too. Which complicates the transgender issue, because all that's left in my mind for what defines gender is the scientific assignment of sex.

Except what makes Caitlyn/Bruce a woman isn't the desire to wear dresses out high heels, it's feeling with every fibre of your body that you are a woman

Being transgender is not about gender roles
The mental condition associated with it, gender dysphoria causes significant dissonance between the brain and the body

So when Bruce says he wants to be Caitlyn, nothing about Caitlyn is anything I would deem as necessary to identify as a female to do. It's all just superficial.

The superficial changes, like name and appearance, are made to make the person comfortable with themselves, because Bruce/Caitlyn already IS a woman and nothing about those changes makes that fact more or less valid

Transgender people are not a good example for this discussion, because they are not mis-identifying themselves, quite to the contrary actually

[Anomalocaris]

Is there a reason to say Bruce/carlin Jenner is a stegosaur if he/she/it feels with every fiber of his/her/its being that he/she/it is a roof lizard?

I thought humoring people's desire to Pretend they are really what they want to be, not what they actually are,  is not a sign of respect but of the sort of condescension reserved by adults for children.

[Longhorn]

Is there a reason to say Bruce/carlin Jenner is a stegosaur if he/she/it feels with every fiber of his/her/its being that he/she/it is a roof lizard?

No, that would make her delusional, but this is an actual, described, diagnosable condition that has nothing to do with whims and everything to do with brain structure and chemistry

I thought humoring people's desire to Pretend they are really what they want to be, not what they actually are,  is not a sign of respect but of the sort of condescension reserved by adults for children.

Here's the thing though: what she actually is is a transwoman

[bennyboy]

I'm definitely in the skeptical party that feels like we're being mandated to play pretend.  Bruce Jenner, for example, wants us to call him a her named Caitlyn.  Sure, whatever.  I don't give a shit.  But us all pretending he's a woman doesn't make him a woman in my mind.  

Except psychologically, Caitlyn/Bruce is a woman

What does that even mean? What makes a person's psychology "female?" Can I claim that I have "black" psychology, and make everyone call me Mr. T?

Caitlyn/Bruce identifies as female, but I think this is a kind of sexism: it means he associates aspects of his own psychology with qualities that are considered female. This is stereotyping, and in my opinion, it's anti-feminist. A female isn't less of a woman if she's hairy, or strong, or has a heavy jaw. She's not less of a woman if she likes Monster Trucks, or watches Japanese squirrel-in-a-wood-chipper porn. There IS no such thing as a female psychology, unless you are willing to stereotype.

I'm really starting to get irate about this issue, because everyone said that transgender, etc. WASN'T a slippery slope. Now we can see that every fucking person can decide how they want people to treat them. Okay, from now on, nobody else gets to address me without calling me Sir Donkey Dick the Magic Space Monkey. How dare anyone question my donkey dick magic space monkey-ness?

This tendency of making shit up and making people pretend they believe it isn't liberal. It's religious.

[bennyboy]

Here's the thing though: what she actually is is a transwoman

I'm pretty sure Jenner doesn't want her license to read "transwoman."