(June 16, 2015 at 1:33 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(June 16, 2015 at 1:31 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If you have to deny -reality- in order to maintain your beliefs about it...I think that your beliefs are in trouble.

If materialism is true, there would be no way for us to even know if we have free-will or not at the present moment.

So what?

Quote:So a lot of our beliefs would be in trouble with "reality" as an Atheist perceives.

How so?

(June 16, 2015 at 1:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: They way I look at it, is that goodness is something spiritual that is tied to your spiritual value. We value people who good and we believe their goodness increases their value. This shows we inherit our actions and that there is a metaphysical reality to our actions and soul. The nature of goodness is spiritual, and hence it proves a spiritual reality. It's nature is also eternal and proves an eternal reality and origin. All possible goodness levels are only possible because there is ultimate goodness which is the basis to all possible levels.

To me this is a manifest fact. I've debated the issue here from different angles. I believe our rights derive from spiritual value, and spiritual value of ours derives from ultimate value. There being possible levels of spiritual value to the extent there is no limit to it, is only due to ultimate value as it's basis.

Ultimately the world trial and the evils and tribulations of this world is so we inherit spiritual value of love, honor, and goodness. The beauty in such souls that inherit good actions is worth the trial specially since the trial is only temporary and is nothing when compared to eternity.

Goodness is a proof of God because it's his light and stems from eternal reality. It manifests spiritual value which is metaphysical and living reality, not just a mere concept within our minds.

An argument I've never seen a good refutation to:

If God can determine morality to be anything he wants, then it would be arbitrary.
Morality is not arbitrary.
Therefore God cannot determine morality to be anything he wants.
This shows morality is eternal, because if God couldn't create it from nothing and determine it, then neither can evolution as he can create evolution.
Morality must exist with a mind. 
An Eternal mind therefore exists.

I guess "determined morality" is not a good way to say. What I mean is that He *created* morality.

The problem, Mystic?

(June 16, 2015 at 1:25 pm)abaris Wrote:

(June 16, 2015 at 1:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: That's horrible!

Yes, it is.

I'm well aware that not all christians are abominations like this one. But the point I'm trying to make is, just being religious isn't a safety belt. The truth of the matter is, you can pick horrible things from the bible and act accordingly. And Kyle, in my opinion, has it absolutely right. These people are brothers in spirit to the Taliban and ISIS. It's only a functioning society preventing them to act on their vileness.

And they feel justified in the same way you feel justified. They only get a different message from the same texts.

I can assure you most Christians do not believe that it is moral to kill gay people lol. Your video was the first time I came accross this in my 29 years, and I have been around a lot of Christians.

Unfortunately there are bad seeds from all walks of life. Christians are no different here, since after all, we are people. Likewise, there have been Atheists who also believe certain people should die simply because of what they believe. I have said many times that being religious is not some kind of shield that prevents people from doing bad things. People still have free will and people are still flawed individuals. You don't need to tell me this. Part of my religion is the very belief that this is true.

(June 16, 2015 at 1:25 pm)abaris Wrote:

(June 16, 2015 at 1:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: That's horrible!

Yes, it is.

I'm well aware that not all christians are abominations like this one. But the point I'm trying to make is, just being religious isn't a safety belt. The truth of the matter is, you can pick horrible things from the bible and act accordingly. And Kyle, in my opinion, has it absolutely right. These people are brothers in spirit to the Taliban and ISIS. It's only a functioning society preventing them to act on their vileness.

And they feel justified in the same way you feel justified. They only get a different message from the same texts.

I would argue that these types of people are not Christians no matter what they claim. Being a Christian takes more than just claiming the name. You have to live like one to deserve the title. A good test is from Galatians 5:

Life by the Spirit
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Ah, another of the True Christian© crowd.

Don't worry CT, there's way too many question for anyone to reasonably expect you to answer them all. Just see how you get on

It's not everyday we get a theist as pleasant and reasonable as you.

(June 16, 2015 at 1:37 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: How so?

Good and evil can be all creations of the mind with no substance and there being nothing really "good" aside from a concept we have in our minds. Another is that we would not know that we have a perpetual identity in a sense we are the exactly same being as we are as babies or rather we are whole different being. Many of the truths we take for granted would be put into question.

(June 16, 2015 at 1:31 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(June 16, 2015 at 1:25 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

Im sorry, Mystic, but I'm just not pretending.  You can either accept that or continue to pitch straw?

Yes you are right, that was a slip. I just think however it is manifest enough to Atheists that we have a soul, but, they've gone on this notion of intellectual superior high ground  to just doubt anything spiritual or metaphysical. I do believe however they do pretend to not understand what spiritual or soul is, yes, they don't believe in it, but they very well understand what it is.

I hope our lovely new Catholic lady doesn't resent the many offshoot discussions that arise here in the best of threads.

Mystic, as you may remember, I do attach meaning to the concept of soul, albeit a psychological meaning.  It is a concept I think is worth retaining, properly understood.  In the same vein one can attach meaning to "gods" and what is "spiritual".  But we can never expect another to value what we do in the way that we do.  No one needs to justify finding these terms not useful.  If you really want to discuss them on your terms, you might want to start a thread to see who will play.

Then again, perhaps you really wanted to address your question to our new member.  (Of course, whether she finds it one she wishes to engage is entirely up to her.)

(June 16, 2015 at 1:43 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(June 16, 2015 at 1:37 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: How so?

Good and evil can be all creations of the mind with no substance and there being nothing really "good" aside from a concept we have in our minds. Another is that we would not know that we have a perpetual identity in a sense we are the exactly same being as we are as babies or rather we are whole different being. Many of the truths we take for granted would be put into question.

Well..I don't believe in 'good' and 'evil' as objective entities anyway, so...no problem for me there. I also don't believe in a 'perpetual' anything let alone an identity, so no problem for me there. I don't take anything for granted as absolute truth, soooo...