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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 18, 2015 at 3:13 pm
(This post was last modified: June 18, 2015 at 3:14 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(June 18, 2015 at 2:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 18, 2015 at 2:47 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: What that means for you is that interpretation is vital to understanding the Bible. What makes your interpretation privileged?
In my opinion, the Church. 
...2000 years of theologians and philosophers constantly studying the bible, studying the culture of the time, trying to gain understanding, etc.
I believe the Church is the main pillar of Truth, not the bible itself.
And what basis do you have for that, other than the upbringing you've reported you've had in the Church? Because quite frankly, the musings of church theologians are terribly unconvincing.
From an objective standpoint, your position looks an awful lot like programming.
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 18, 2015 at 3:14 pm
(This post was last modified: June 18, 2015 at 3:16 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It also looks an awful lot like deceit. Our catholic friend can't seem to agree with herself from one page to the next.
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 18, 2015 at 3:15 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 2:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 18, 2015 at 2:37 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Just one tiny detail that you may not be aware:
Can you spot what's wrong with this image?
Can you agree that saving sex for marriage prevents pregnancy? 
If you don't follow the teaching to save sex for marriage, obviously you are fair game with out of wedlock pregnancy. I'm not sure what your post is supposed to be telling me.
Are you kidding?
Not having sex prevents pregnancy.
Telling people not to have sex makes them have more sex. It doesn't prevent pregnancy.
Mmmmmmkay?
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 18, 2015 at 3:15 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 3:01 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Parker Tan, I know you don't like what he wrote, but do you really think that kind of treatment was warranted? 
Perhaps not, but try not to concern yourself with controlling other people's tone. That's my job.
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 18, 2015 at 3:21 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 3:13 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Just to clarify, when I say "teaches" I don't literally mean they go around in groups and tell kids not to have sex lol. It just means that if you open up the Catechism, under sexual morality, it will explain that sex is meant for husband and wife. I'm not talking about abstinence only education in schools. I agree that they should be objectively taught about birth control.
Indeed, they should... but they aren't.
And the reason why they aren't can be traced to that teaching of the church.
Like you have applied to yourself, you (and others) think that such teaching is enough... and to those who fail to contain their urges... tough luck, live with it - no abortion is allowed, either! Sucks to be them, but it felt good to have sex, so screw them, huh?
Shouldn't we think about the greater good, keeping the most people happy and all that stuff that "good" entails (back to the OP, see?)
Do you think the greater good is for so many teens to get pregnant? Are most of them happy with that?
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 18, 2015 at 3:26 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 3:13 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Just to clarify, when I say "teaches" I don't literally mean they go around in groups and tell kids not to have sex lol. It just means that if you open up the Catechism, under sexual morality, it will explain that sex is meant for husband and wife. I'm not talking about abstinence only education in schools. I agree that they should be objectively taught about birth control.
You are directly in opposition to the Catholic Church on that. The Catholic approach to this issue is to insist on abstinence only education and to deny reality:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/educ...ntext.html
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 18, 2015 at 3:40 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 2:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ...2000 years of theologians and philosophers constantly studying the bible, studying the culture of the time, trying to gain understanding, etc.
I believe the Church is the main pillar of Truth, not the bible itself.
And often being entirely wrong or bending the historical truth to suit their needs. As I said in a previous post. For one, the church is more the church of Paul than the church of Jesus and secondly, the so called church fathers bending over to get the Roman emperor's attention. So what's called the Catholic church is the result of politics rather than belief or faith.
And that's not even considering the ensuing forgeries of documents such as the Constantinian donation or the celibacy issue which is a political as well as a financial decision more than anything else. They didn't want the heirlooms of the clergy go to their wives and children and decided to impose that law. It also started in the 4th century, but wasn't written in stone until pope Calistus II decreed on the First Lateran Council that clerical marriages were invalid. That was in 1123.
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 18, 2015 at 3:42 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 2:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: In my opinion, the Church.
...2000 years of theologians and philosophers constantly studying the bible, studying the culture of the time, trying to gain understanding, etc.
Question, CL. How do theologians know anything ?
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 18, 2015 at 3:50 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 3:11 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: (June 18, 2015 at 3:08 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, I agree.
If he wants to say that teaching abstinence only in public schools does not help prevent pregnancy, that is fine. I already said I agree. 
Saying abstinence itself doesn't work, though, is just not accurate.
My point was that the Church teaches to save sex for marriage. If this was actually followed, there would be a lot less pregnancy.
But your church is also against most (all?) forms of contraception. You have a doctrine that is demonstrably harmful to human wellbeing. Why push it as the only choice when we have mountains of data that there are far more viable alternatives?
I have also addressed this. The Church does not teach "hey kids, go have sex before marriage, but don't use condoms!". The Church teaches "Hey kids, don't have sex until marriage." (They should, of course go a lot more into detail than that when speaking to kids, but you get my point).
The contraception law applies to people who are married, since it's a moot point otherwise. Couples who are married are encouraged to be responsible in their family planning, but to do so using fertility monitoring means rather than artificial contraception.
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 18, 2015 at 3:53 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 3:50 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 18, 2015 at 3:11 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: But your church is also against most (all?) forms of contraception. You have a doctrine that is demonstrably harmful to human wellbeing. Why push it as the only choice when we have mountains of data that there are far more viable alternatives?
I have also addressed this. The Church does not teach "hey kids, go have sex before marriage, but don't use condoms!". The Church teaches "Hey kids, don't have sex until marriage." (They should, of course go a lot more into detail than that when speaking to kids, but you get my point).
The contraception law applies to people who are married, since it's a moot point otherwise. Couples who are married are encouraged to be responsible in their family planning, but to do so using fertility monitoring means rather than artificial contraception.
So the catholic church does push abstinence-only education until marriage, where contraception is still wrong.
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