There is no such pair -and we'd be able to tell if there had been.  There is not even the biological -possibility- of such a breeding pair.  Does your faith position alter to match the facts?

so you're not one of those crazy evolution deniers, great

(June 17, 2015 at 9:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Now, my opinion is that man evolved from an ancestor of some sort which was NOT human (as you and I are human) but very close. You may agree with that. But this is key (and I freely admit that I may be wrong and that I may change my opinion without public notice), I think that at some point, God chose one male and one female of these ancestors and breathed into them a HUMAN spirit instead of an animal spirit which others of the species received. This pair, from which all humans are descended, are the man and woman we refer to as Adam and Eve.

fascinating opinion....how do you know that?

(June 17, 2015 at 9:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Now, my opinion is that man evolved from an ancestor of some sort which was NOT human (as you and I are human) but very close. You may agree with that. But this is key (and I freely admit that I may be wrong and that I may change my opinion without public notice), I think that at some point, God chose one male and one female of these ancestors and breathed into them a HUMAN spirit instead of an animal spirit which others of the species received. This pair, from which all humans are descended, are the man and woman we refer to as Adam and Eve.

I don't want to derail, but you really should read "Waiting for the Galactic Bus" by Parke Godwin. I really think you'd enjoy it.

We're taking this outside then?

(June 20, 2015 at 11:38 am)Neimenovic Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 11:21 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Okay, I've read everything you wrote, and I will try to keep it all in mind as we go forward.

I would like to ask one question. You wrote, "I hate catholicism for what it teaches."

If you can boil it down, what does the Catholic Church teach that you find worthy of such hatred?

Where do I begin?

That we're born broken, sinful and sick and need to be saved. That we're nothing without god. The idea of vicarious redemption. The guilt. The notion of hell. Thought crime. The submission. The idea that some men are better than others. The oppression of women and discrimination of homosexuals. That contraception and abortion are wrong and so is premarital sex. The way it fetishizes suffering. That we should give to the poor, but nevermind the golden cross the pope's holding. That criminals can escape legal persecution and instead be protected by the church. The egocentrism behind the humility. Celibacy. That people can be infallible. That there is a third party involved in every crime that demands an apology.

Enough for you?

(June 20, 2015 at 12:28 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: We're taking this outside then?

(June 20, 2015 at 11:38 am)Neimenovic Wrote: Where do I begin?

That we're born broken, sinful and sick and need to be saved. That we're nothing without god. The idea of vicarious redemption. The guilt. The notion of hell. Thought crime. The submission. The idea that some men are better than others. The oppression of women and discrimination of homosexuals. That contraception and abortion are wrong and so is premarital sex. The way it fetishizes suffering. That we should give to the poor, but nevermind the golden cross the pope's holding. That criminals can escape legal persecution and instead be protected by the church. The egocentrism behind the humility. Celibacy. That people can be infallible. That there is a third party involved in every crime that demands an apology.

Enough for you?

Okay, here are the points you have listed broken out individually and numbered for convenience in referencing:

1. That we're born broken, sinful and sick and need to be saved.

2. That we're nothing without god.

3. The idea of vicarious redemption.

4. The guilt.

5. The notion of hell.

6. Thought crime.

7. The submission.

8. The idea that some men are better than others.

9. The oppression of women and discrimination of homosexuals.

10. That contraception and abortion are wrong and so is premarital sex.

11. The way it fetishizes suffering.

11. That we should give to the poor, but nevermind the golden cross the pope's holding.

12. That criminals can escape legal persecution and instead be protected by the church.

13. The egocentrism behind the humility.

14. Celibacy.

15. That people can be infallible.

16. That there is a third party involved in every crime that demands an apology.

Since YOU got to choose these points, I get to choose the order in which we discuss them, okay?

I'm going to create a separate post for each topic with a clear headline so you'll know what I'm addressing.

We both know that lots of folks will jump into this discussion, but I'll try to stay focused on you responding to others only when absolutely necessary or when it advances the discussion you and I are having. We can discuss each point...one at a time...until either of us "taps out" by saying something like, "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree." or "Okay, I see your point." Agreed?

So, without further ado..on to my first response.

14. Celibacy.

I'm going to discuss celibacy as a discipline of the Catholic Church applied to priests in the Latin Rite. Catholic priests in other rites are NOT required to remain celibate, and there are exceptions made even within the Latin Rite. But the image of the celibate Catholic priest is common in western civilization, so I will address what I believe is your concern about that. If I do not address your specific concern(s), please let me know in your response.

In order to understand celibacy as a discipline, I want to provide the following definitions:

Dogma
A dogma is 1) a divinely revealed truth which 2) has been proclaimed as such by the infallible teaching authority of the Church.  
1) A dogma must be found explicitly or implicitly in the deposit of faith given to the Church by Jesus in Sacred Scripture and/or Sacred Tradition.
2) A dogma must be infallibly taught by the Church as divinely revealed.
All dogmas are infallibly taught as divinely revealed truths, but not all infallibly defined truths are taught as divinely revealed. In the latter case, the infallibly taught truth would not be considered a dogma.

Doctrine
A doctrine is a way of understanding divine revelation and which is taught authoritatively by the Magisterium of the Church. Doctrine may be defined either infallibly or non-infallibly. All dogmas are doctrines, but not all doctrines are dogmas.

Discipline
A discipline is a rule of the Church which requires obedience due to the authority given to the Church by Jesus. Disciplines may be changed during the course of history based upon the needs of the Church.  Examples of Church disciplines include fasting during Lent and the celibacy of priests in the Latin rite.

Devotion
A devotion is a religious exercise or practice other than the regular corporate worship of a congregation. Devotions directed toward God are rightly called worship while devotions directed toward saints are classified as veneration.

Now, with all of that in place, let's take a look at celibacy.

Many people believe that the Catholic Church violates the Word of God because it forbids people to marry (cf. 1 Timothy 4:3) or that it is wrong for priests to remain celibate. To get a clearer picture of the basis for Catholic thought on this subject, let’s examine what the Bible has to say about the subject of celibacy.

Matthew 19:11-12
11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Jesus offers the celibate life as a gift and tells us that “The one who can accept this should accept it.”

1 Corinthians 7:1
1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.

1 Corinthians 7:7
7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

Paul reveals his own celibacy and offers an earnest wish that more people would follow his example.

1 Corinthians 7:8-9
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Paul concedes that getting married is better than struggling with sexual temptation; for those that “cannot control themselves, they should marry.”

Is Paul completely opposed to marriage? Not at all. The book of Hebrews states:

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

Why then does Paul recommend celibacy?

1 Corinthians 7:32-35
32I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

From this passage, we can see Paul’s primary reason for advocating celibacy: he wants everyone to live in undivided devotion to the Lord, and in all of these verses, the Bible makes it clear that Jesus calls some men to the priesthood and offers them the gift of a celibate life to be lived in undivided devotion to God. Paul understands that not everyone is offered this gift and that not all to whom it is offered can or will accept it.

There are Latin Rite Catholic priests who are married; typically, these are men who were priests in the Anglican, Orthodox or other faith traditions and have converted to the Catholic faith after they were married in those churches. Under special circumstances, they may be ordained to serve as Catholic priests. Men who are already Catholic when they begin to discern their call to the priesthood must remain celibate. In other rites, Catholic priests may be married.

The Catholic Church forbids no man to marry. However, she does desire that those who will represent Christ, who will stand in persona Christi (in the place of Christ) when administering the sacraments as priests, be like their Lord as fully as possible. This means that like Jesus, they are celibate men prepared to sacrifice their own lives in the service of God and others.

The calling and the gift are offered by God; those who choose to accept them do so freely.

+++

Now, I fully understand that you are not a Catholic, not a Christian and not even a theist. However, what I have just shown is that Catholic thought on the subject of celibacy is consistent with with the Bible which Catholics believe to be the inspired Word of God. Consequently, the discipline of celibacy is consistent with the teachings of scripture. Is it your opinion that the Catholic Church is being inconsistent in any way?

If not, are there any other objections you have to priestly celibacy freely accepted as a gift by those to whom it is given?

Agreed. Pick whatever one you like, in whatever order.

A heads up. Some stuff may be a bit touchy. I'll let you know when I'm getting worked up and take a break to cool off. Don't want to lash out or turn this into a flame war.

I'm glad you agreed to this, btw. I hope we can have some discussion.

Ok, that was very in depth. Thanks.

(June 20, 2015 at 2:48 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Now, I fully understand that you are not a Catholic, not a Christian and not even a theist. However, what I have just shown is that Catholic thought on the subject of celibacy is consistent with with the Bible which Catholics believe to be the inspired Word of God. Consequently, the discipline of celibacy is consistent with the teachings of scripture. Is it your opinion that the Catholic Church is being inconsistent in any way?

If not, are there any other objections you have to priestly celibacy freely accepted as a gift by those to whom it is given?

I didn't mean it was contradicting the scripture, but thanks for clarifying that.

The problems I see with celibacy:

~it is applied to people who are supposed to be an authority in terms of marriage and family.

It seems to me that priests aren't qualified to speak as an authority on people's personal lives if they haven't got the experience needed to give advice.

I know you will say that they derive what they teach from the bible-fair enough. But there are still matters which aren't addressed in the bible, as they became problematic with changes in society. I don't think that what applied to Bronze Age Jews can be applied to today's families and marriages.

For instance, there's a lot about striking your son with a rod. Metaphorical? I'd believe it, if it wasn't mentioned so many times.

I think there are a lot of issues married couples and parents might have that priests can't comment on.

~it's unhealthy

I am certainly not denying there are people who would gladly be celibate and feel no ill effects of it. But overall, to many it may be damaging.

Those who abstain (wilfully, might I add) from sex have a death rate twice as high as those who don't. Having sex reduces risk if heart disease, depression and improves the immune system.

Repression of sexual urges, even wilful, leads to higher risk of aggression and crime. There is a link between it and insensitivity.

~it attracts the wrong kind of people

To a sexually repressed individual, celibacy appears tempting. Many who become priests are already involuntarily sexually repressed. This may lead to incidents such as sexual harassment or even child abuse in the case of sexually repressed pedophiles. Of course this in no way applies to all celibate priests, but it is an issue.


That's all I can think of right now, off the top of my head.

Who cares ... I'm not married, and yet I've never once ever thought about committing a despicable act like raping a child. But it's not even the pedophilia itself that I find the most problematic, it's all the senior church officials who protected these predators and created a culture where this grotesque treatment of children was allowed to thrive.

You tell me that yours is a church guided by a holy spirit, but how can any reasonable mind view this behavior as consistent with the idea of divine guidance (much less guidance by a benevolent and loving deity)? Fucking ridiculous.

They had to protect their assets....and asses, Francis.