(June 20, 2015 at 11:29 am)Randy Carson Wrote: A guy named Thomas thought the same way. Right up until the moment that he put his fingers into the nail wounds in Jesus' hands.

Well - sure, when Thomas wants to poke Jesus's orifices with his sweaty extremities, in order to obtain a proof - he gets to. And we're supposed to simply believe the stories, even though we haven't even had any contact with Jesus and haven't witnessed any of his supposed miracles?
Screw that.

Come on, Jesus. Time to show us your holes.

(June 20, 2015 at 11:13 am)KevinM1 Wrote:

(June 19, 2015 at 7:32 pm)Starvald Demelain Wrote: Bloody flames. I've not seen a whine fest of such proportion since Godschild had his nuclear meltdown.

Which one?

Yes.

(June 20, 2015 at 11:29 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 19, 2015 at 8:08 am)Brakeman Wrote: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the jesus claim is extraordinary.

A guy named Thomas thought the same way. Right up until the moment that he put his fingers into the nail wounds in Jesus' hands.

Pretty much all of the disciples seem to have had doubts about Jesus' resurrection until they saw him with their own eyes. It's curious because --according to the story-- Jesus had not only resurrected two people himself (thus showing it was possible) but he told his disciples that he would return just days after his death.

After three years of watching him perform miracles, and giving talks which left people awestruck, and making predictions that came true, they nonetheless seemed to think that the ride was over when Jesus was killed... even though he had predicted that as well! As with the old testament, we get a character who can't seem to impress people in spite of actions that should have had them all at his feet. And his own closest followers are just as unimpressed! Thomas's petulant claim that he wouldn't accept it until he could put his fingers in Jesus' wounds makes for a nice moral fable, but strikes me as shocking for a guy who either saw or heard of the things that Jesus did and said.

Why is a personal face-to-face, undeniable encounter with Christ good enough for Thomas, but these days we have to rely on people like Randy and his supposed "deep understanding of theology" for reliable 'evidence'?

Wow. Pointing to one bit of a story to evidence another bit of the story. How old do you think we are, Randy?

(June 22, 2015 at 8:07 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Why is a personal face-to-face, undeniable encounter with Christ good enough for Thomas, but these days we have to rely on people like Randy and his supposed "deep understanding of theology" for reliable 'evidence'?

The Thomas portion of the story simply served as what might pass for evidence in such superstitious and ignorant times: "Look, I know what I'm telling you sounds crazy, but there was this disciple, Thomas, who blah, blah, blah . . ."

Even then, it seems, there were people within the movement astute enough to know that they were peddling a story that would strike others as seriously whacko, and they needed to shore up their claims with something that seemed to have one foot in reality.  Hence stock character Thomas.

And here we are two-thousand odd years later: We children of an age that actually values evidence are expected to just swallow the story based on nothing more than ancient hearsay (and of course the deep theological understanding of some people -- so deep it wouldn't fill a mud puddle), and on such thin reeds our eternal destiny hinges.  Because, you know, God's perfect plan for salvation . . . .

Yeah, I'm buying that.

But I mean in general, there are plenty of people that claim to have experienced undeniable, irrefutable revelations/interactions/interventions with God today, and a nauseating number of them usually preface their stories with a blurb about how they didn't take their faith seriously or they didn't really believe until their divine event.

If he gives those kinds of absolute proof to random people, and if he supposedly wants us to have a relationship with him, why not just give that personal experience to every atheist?

(June 20, 2015 at 11:29 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 19, 2015 at 8:08 am)Brakeman Wrote: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the jesus claim is extraordinary.

A guy named Thomas thought the same way. Right up until the moment that he put his fingers into the nail wounds in Jesus' hands.

And in the story, Thomas gets the evidence he needs to believe, but is painted as 'lesser' for requiring more evidence than his mates. If I wanted people to believe a false story I knew I couldn't support and wasn't very scrupulous, I would add a 'Doubting Thomas' to it and make out like it was a little silly for him to actually want evidence. It's been awhile since I read any of his stuff, but I'm pretty sure Joseph Smith used a similar literary device.
Part of the problem here is, you wouldn't think that 'Some guy in my sales pitch was just like you and didn't believe my product worked, but he sure found out it really works! You don't want to be like that overly-skeptical dude, do you?' was convincing in any other context. Or if you would, maybe we can meet and I can sell you some stuff you didn't even know you needed.

(June 22, 2015 at 11:50 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 11:29 am)Randy Carson Wrote: A guy named Thomas thought the same way. Right up until the moment that he put his fingers into the nail wounds in Jesus' hands.

And in the story, Thomas gets the evidence he needs to believe, but is painted as 'lesser' for requiring more evidence than his mates. If I wanted people to believe a false story I knew I couldn't support and wasn't very scrupulous, I would add a 'Doubting Thomas' to it and make out like it was a little silly for him to actually want evidence. It's been awhile since I read any of his stuff, but I'm pretty sure Joseph Smith used a similar literary device.
Part of the problem here is, you wouldn't think that 'Some guy in my sales pitch was just like you and didn't believe my product worked, but he sure found out it really works! You don't want to be like that overly-skeptical dude, do you?' was convincing in any other context. Or if you would, maybe we can meet and I can sell you some stuff you didn't even know you needed.

P.T. Barnum was more honest in his sales pitches.  At least he wasn't trying to peddle the idea of souls and salvation through complete obedience.

Quote:Pretty much all of the disciples seem to have had doubts about Jesus' resurrection 

Que the greek chorus, altogether now-

-Disciples:  "Jesus, that's amazing, that's impossible, how could you do that!?!?!"

-Jesus: "Wtf are you guys talking about, same way I miracled shit into being -last- tuesday............?"