Back in the days of proper Who, when Jon Pertwee became incumbent, the Brigadier was suspicious of the man who claimed to be the regenerated form of the one with whom he'd worked previously, to the point where he called him an impostor. Later when confronted with all three of the Doctor's incarnations ("I didn't know when I was well off!"), he thought initially that some experiment had changed him back to his earlier form, but soon adapted to the situation. Later still whe good old Tom Baker took over, the Brig saw the regeneration process firsthand. By now he was seasoned enough in strange happenings surrounding his scientific advisor that he took it almost in his stride ("Well, here we go again!"). So much so that many years later, when confronted with what he thought was a Doctor in a regeneratve crisis, he considered himself a bit of an expert, to the chagrin of the Doctor's latest companions.

The point I'm getting to is that the Brig as a character developed, in much the same way that a real person would in such circumstances. The disciples in the JC story, on the other hand, have a reset switch that kicks in to set them back to their factory defaults after every single miraculous event. By the end, they shouldn't have been surprised by anything the godman said or did.

(June 22, 2015 at 12:33 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Back in the days of proper Who, when Jon Pertwee became incumbent, the Brigadier was suspicious of the man who claimed to be the regenerated form of the one with whom he'd worked previously, to the point where he called him an impostor. Later when confronted with all three of the Doctor's incarnations ("I didn't know when I was well off!"), he thought initially that some experiment had changed him back to his earlier form, but soon adapted to the situation. Later still whe gool old Tom Baker took over, the Brig saw the regeneration process firsthand. By now he was seasoned enough in strange happenings surrounding his scientific advisor that he took it almost in his stride ("Well, here we go again!"). So much so that many years later, when confronted with what he thought was a Doctor in a regeneratve crisis, he considered himself a bit of an expert, to the chagrin of the Doctor's latest companions.

The point I'm getting to is that the Brig as a character developed, in much the same way that a real person would in such circumstances. The disciples in the JC story, on the other hand, have a reset switch that kicks in to set them back to their factory defaults after every single miraculous event. By the end, they shouldn't have been surprised by anything the godman said or did.

That shows that the original Doctor Who show had better writers than the Bible had.

(June 22, 2015 at 12:33 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Back in the days of proper Who, when Jon Pertwee became incumbent, the Brigadier was suspicious of the man who claimed to be the regenerated form of the one with whom he'd worked previously, to the point where he called him an impostor. Later when confronted with all three of the Doctor's incarnations ("I didn't know when I was well off!"), he thought initially that some experiment had changed him back to his earlier form, but soon adapted to the situation. Later still whe gool old Tom Baker took over, the Brig saw the regeneration process firsthand. By now he was seasoned enough in strange happenings surrounding his scientific advisor that he took it almost in his stride ("Well, here we go again!"). So much so that many years later, when confronted with what he thought was a Doctor in a regeneratve crisis, he considered himself a bit of an expert, to the chagrin of the Doctor's latest companions.

The point I'm getting to is that the Brig as a character developed, in much the same way that a real person would in such circumstances. The disciples in the JC story, on the other hand, have a reset switch that kicks in to set them back to their factory defaults after every single miraculous event. By the end, they shouldn't have been surprised by anything the godman said or did.

Yeah, right?  Either the disciples were irretrievably stupid, afflicted with some strange group amnesia, or really badly written characters.

If I had been a member of that circle, the only miracle I might have forgotten was the nifty water-to-wine trick.  But that's just how I roll at wedding receptions with open bars.

(June 22, 2015 at 12:48 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: Yeah, right?  Either the disciples were irretrievably stupid, afflicted with some strange group amnesia, or really badly written characters.

None of the above.....they're serving the function of the greek chorus....I was only half joking earlier. They halt the narrative, they interrupt and bring the audience in, pointing out the important bits of the narrative incase you'd...oh...IDK....fallen asleep.....

The people who wrote the NT were steeped in greek literary device. Had they not intended to port it in, they would have done so by accident (just as authors do today with the tropes and devices common to our narrative styles - even when they make a conscious effort not to). It's just the way that stories were told, and we tell stories the way that we do because it is effective to do so. This device seems ridiculous to us simply because -we- have changed, we prefer our stories told a different way, those old devices have, through centuries of repeated use...lost some of their oomph (though by no means all).

Another fine example is the census. We need to get the godmans mommy to the right place......dues ex machina. A situation wherein we need to move the narrative past an obstacle that the protagonists would have either no means or no motive of resolving themselves. The authors either intentionally or -accidentally- wrote a novel, rather than a biography (as so often happens to this very day).

(June 22, 2015 at 12:33 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Back in the days of proper Who, when Jon Pertwee became incumbent, the Brigadier was suspicious of the man who claimed to be the regenerated form of the one with whom he'd worked previously, to the point where he called him an impostor. Later when confronted with all three of the Doctor's incarnations ("I didn't know when I was well off!"), he thought initially that some experiment had changed him back to his earlier form, but soon adapted to the situation. Later still whe good old Tom Baker took over, the Brig saw the regeneration process firsthand. By now he was seasoned enough in strange happenings surrounding his scientific advisor that he took it almost in his stride ("Well, here we go again!"). So much so that many years later, when confronted with what he thought was a Doctor in a regeneratve crisis, he considered himself a bit of an expert, to the chagrin of the Doctor's latest companions.

The point I'm getting to is that the Brig as a character developed, in much the same way that a real person would in such circumstances. The disciples in the JC story, on the other hand, have a reset switch that kicks in to set them back to their factory defaults after every single miraculous event. By the end, they shouldn't have been surprised by anything the godman said or did.

It's a very good point. It reminds me of watching that guy Dynamo. His tricks are simply stunning. Some are obviously some sort of rig job and it's hard to understand, but some are sleight of hand that beggar belief. The problem is, after you've seen him do a few of them, you get used to it. Impressive though the tricks are, you expect it of him. You don't get the same level of absolute shock all over again.

The biggest surprise must have been seeing him lay down and be killed while having all that supposed power. Erm, Jesus that is.

(June 22, 2015 at 7:40 am)Tonus Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 11:29 am)Randy Carson Wrote: A guy named Thomas thought the same way. Right up until the moment that he put his fingers into the nail wounds in Jesus' hands.

Pretty much all of the disciples seem to have had doubts about Jesus' resurrection until they saw him with their own eyes.  It's curious because --according to the story-- Jesus had not only resurrected two people himself (thus showing it was possible) but he told his disciples that he would return just days after his death.

After three years of watching him perform miracles, and giving talks which left people awestruck, and making predictions that came true, they nonetheless seemed to think that the ride was over when Jesus was killed... even though he had predicted that as well!  As with the old testament, we get a character who can't seem to impress people in spite of actions that should have had them all at his feet.  And his own closest followers are just as unimpressed!  Thomas's petulant claim that he wouldn't accept it until he could put his fingers in Jesus' wounds makes for a nice moral fable, but strikes me as shocking for a guy who either saw or heard of the things that Jesus did and said.

Two points:

1. You're right. After the crucifixion, I think the apostles were in shock...and this despite Jesus' promises AND the miracles they had seen. That seems kinda normal to me and lends some credibility to the whole thing by virtue of the criterion of embarrassment. IOW, the apostles didn't try to hide the fact that they had doubts; they were honest about it...which is sort of embarrassing if you're telling everyone that you spent three years with God. And you still lacked faith? Ouch!

2. Thomas refused to believe at first because he was NOT present at Jesus' first appearance.

(June 22, 2015 at 8:13 am)Stimbo Wrote: Wow. Pointing to one bit of a story to evidence another bit of the story. How old do you think we are, Randy?

I ask myself that every time I read the posts from some members of this forum.

(June 22, 2015 at 8:36 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: But I mean in general, there are plenty of people that claim to have experienced undeniable, irrefutable revelations/interactions/interventions with God today, and a nauseating number of them usually preface their stories with a blurb about how they didn't take their faith seriously or they didn't really believe until their divine event.  

If he gives those kinds of absolute proof to random people, and if he supposedly wants us to have a relationship with him, why not just give that personal experience to every atheist?

You're getting warmer...

(June 22, 2015 at 11:12 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 22, 2015 at 8:13 am)Stimbo Wrote: Wow. Pointing to one bit of a story to evidence another bit of the story. How old do you think we are, Randy?

I ask myself that every time I read the posts from some members of this forum.

Do you ever wonder why you're not taken seriously here?

Quote:1. You're right. After the crucifixion, I think the apostles were in shock...and this despite Jesus' promises AND the miracles they had seen.

Hey.  Your boytoy "mark" claimed that after the women ran away they said "nothing."  Are you calling "mark" a liar?

Quote: Mark 16:8King James Version (KJV)

8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.

You'd better watch your ass or the Holy Fucking Ghost will take a flamethrower to it.