The Hebrews weren't behaving any better than other warriors in other cultures. Rome had the legend of Rape of the Women of Sabine. According to the legend around the 8th century BC, the Romans invited another tribe to celebrate in their city. The Romans, who needed wives, forcibly took the women to marry. Legend says that the women eventually accepted their lot and tried to end the war between their tribesmen and the men married them via rape. It is only a legend but it shows that the Hebrews weren't practicing a kinder, more gentle rape. Bible god's higher moral standard was surprisingly similar to the morals of just about everyone else during that period when it came to rape and marriage.

(June 24, 2015 at 8:03 pm)Metis Wrote:

(June 24, 2015 at 7:59 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Then perhaps you should focus your energy on those types of people. Randy is not one of them.

I, for one, have never met a single Christian or Jew who honestly believed God wants them to rape. Not saying there aren't crazies out there, but the normal person does not come out from reading the bible believing that this is what God wants. As long as Randy believes rape is wrong, why does it matter, to you, that he reads/believes the bible? This is an honest question, btw. Not trying to be rude. I'm just a little perplexed as to why anyone would let it bother them so much.

Because fundamentalists of any creed are dangerous Catholic_Lady. Just look at what ISIS is doing in Palmyra at the moment. Slaughtering untold millions, erasing all traces of mesopotamias ancient past.

I'm not saying Randy is going to fly a plane into a building or find some virgin to rape and marry, but this line of thinking is a very slippery slope.

I agree. But they are dangerous because they believe horrible things (rape, murder, etc) are moral. This does not apply to Randy.

If it was that much of a slippery slope, don't you think many more Christians and Jews would have the belief that God wanted them to rape?

(June 24, 2015 at 8:09 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I agree. But they are dangerous because they believe horrible things (rape, murder, etc) are moral. This does not apply to Randy.

Actually the Salafists (what ISIS are) are against rape and murder, but they make a separation between "just" and "deserved" (Salafists deserve protection but everyone else is just cattle to be used as wished). It's rather akin to the Catholic doctrine of Just war; killing is bad, but some people like heretics should be killed as well.

The 10 commandments are pretty explicit about "Thou Shalt Not Kill", but the Catholic Church does not condemn Capital Punishment. Francis may personally complain about it but you may have noticed he does not forbid it.

Quote:If it was that much of a slippery slope, don't you think many more Christians and Jews would have the belief that God wanted them to rape?

I think most Western Christians and Jews are too busy wrapped up in their white picket fence subpurgatory to really muster up the fervor for a Crusade. If you look to South Africa where the religious passion runs hotter "corrective rape" against women, especially lesbians, is actually a thing in Christian groups.

You've also got some Hasidic Jews over in Israel who think the new Israeli state needs to be destroyed and the "westernized" women who aren't subservient to men all need to be put to death. After a corrective rape of course, although what they're trying to correct if they need to die anyway I don't know.

(June 24, 2015 at 7:59 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 24, 2015 at 7:14 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote: It's important to state that "the good book" is not so good to protect women from being raped by their husbands. Billions of people still justify their atrocities, using OT.

Then perhaps you should focus your energy on those types of people. Randy is not one of them.

I, for one, have never met a single Christian or Jew who honestly believed God wants them to rape. Not saying there aren't crazies out there, but the normal person does not come out from reading the bible believing that this is what God wants. As long as Randy believes rape is wrong, why does it matter, to you, that he reads/believes the bible? This is an honest question, btw. Not trying to be rude. I'm just a little perplexed as to why anyone would let it bother them so much.

Who said God wants anyone to rape?? I don't think anyone has.

I've said he condones rape, meaning he accepts and allows it. Give me one good example of God bringing justice to a rapist for the crime of rape.

Hint: making him pay daddy and marry his victim doesn't count; there's absolutely no justice for the rape victim there.

(June 24, 2015 at 7:59 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:  [...]As long as Randy believes rape is wrong, why does it matter, to you, that he reads/believes the bible? This is an honest question, btw. Not trying to be rude. I'm just a little perplexed as to why anyone would let it bother them so much.

I don't care what he reads/believes. I care about what he posts publicly. It's a matter of principles. Despicable ideas need to be met with a reaction - that's how civilized society enforces ethics. That's how random people reading this thread (some of which may not know any better) can be made aware, that there are opposing views to the ones expressed by apologists.

And yes - I was raised a Catholic, I was spoon-fed this nonsense since before I was able to think critically and I knew a bunch of Christians, who had a very OT approach to marriage and sex. Not to mention the f-ing Muslims - who still seem to be living in bronze age. So - I'm sorry (well - not really) that it bothers me when apologists do their darndest to try and make horrible primitive people and their customs appear somehow justified - but it does. And Randy can easily avoid my ripostes, by keeping his weasel-y nonsensical rationalizations to himself. 

Can't stand the heat - get the f*** out of my kitchen. (Yes - I am a chef, so pardon me for not being a silver-tongued diplomat - we all express ourselves the way we know how). This is an Atheist Forum, after all. What do you expect? "Amen, brother!"?

(June 24, 2015 at 11:59 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I wouldn't say they are just "wrong". They're stories which I believe to be fictional, they can't be either right or wrong.

Now, apply that to the whole buy-bull and you're on the path to enlightenment.

(June 24, 2015 at 8:09 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If it was that much of a slippery slope, don't you think many more Christians and Jews would have the belief that God wanted them to rape?

No, because psychologically healthy people use their own, internal and natural, moral compass. Not the barbaric morality from ancient texts.

You, yourself do this, except you claim that the parts of the Bible that you admit are immoral, are the fault of imperfect humans. 

You are not following a god's morality, you are following your own. You just claim it is a god's when your ancient text agrees with your own moral compass. When it doesn't agree, you just say it must not be the word of a moral god, it's man's fault for recording god's words wrong.

You are more moral than the god you worship. Almost all Christians are. Own it!

Any god who approves of slavery, rape, genocide, infanticide, and so on is no god that I would ever worship even if he were real.

(June 24, 2015 at 5:43 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: AN OPEN APOLOGY TO REXBECCAROX

Becca-

I apologize for calling you a liar. It was wrong of me to do so, and I'm sorry.

I've been reflecting on this for the past day or so, and I've come to the conclusion that you really did not mean to state an untruth about God condoning rape. You have said that He does, but I think in all fairness to you, you may never have seen the additional passages from Deuteronomy that show God requiring Hebrew men to take these women into their homes as wives with all of the rights, privileges and so forth that any married woman would expect. Without that information, your perspective, while incorrect, is certainly understandable. Consequently, I think you were posting your views honestly and in good faith. You were not lying.

Again, I apologize for claiming that you were, and I ask for your forgiveness.

Randy

Hey, Randy, when you were scraping that apology empty, I think you missed a bit right down near the bottom.

(June 24, 2015 at 8:17 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:

(June 24, 2015 at 7:59 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Then perhaps you should focus your energy on those types of people. Randy is not one of them.

I, for one, have never met a single Christian or Jew who honestly believed God wants them to rape. Not saying there aren't crazies out there, but the normal person does not come out from reading the bible believing that this is what God wants. As long as Randy believes rape is wrong, why does it matter, to you, that he reads/believes the bible? This is an honest question, btw. Not trying to be rude. I'm just a little perplexed as to why anyone would let it bother them so much.

Who said God wants anyone to rape??  I don't think anyone has.

I've said he condones rape, meaning he accepts and allows it.  Give me one good example of God bringing justice to a rapist for the crime of rape.

It's in Sky-Daddy's Law, becca:

Deuteronomy 22:25-27
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

Men died for rape according to the Law of God.

God does not condone rape.