(June 24, 2015 at 11:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I've never met any Christian or Jew who honestly believe God condones rape. As I have explained in several other posts,  Randy was not saying that God condones rape.

You're switching gears between what the "God" character may or may not be written to condone and what people believe the character condones. It's a manoeuvre I call Dolphinetics, the act of leaping seamless from subject to subject in the course of the same swim, usually in the hope that we won't be able to keep up. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't realise you were doing it, while simultaneously letting you know that we can spot it quite easily.

(June 25, 2015 at 4:21 am)Neimenovic Wrote: Light years measure distance.

Thank you! Some people have no idea just how much pain they're causing with this!

(Incidentally and quite off-topic: Parsecs are also a measure of distance and both Han Solo and George Lucas knew it [and assumed the audience did too].)

The thing is, to most of us in civilized society, basic morality is obvious. So if you assume Jesus is good, then Jesus must agree with those good things that are obvious. Therefor he thinks them, even if he didn't say them.

In other words, you don't need him at all. He's just a reflection of what you already know is good. I mean, what do we have so far?

Rape: nice Christians says its wrong. Bible says its fine under some circumstances.

Slavery: nice Christians say it's wrong. Bible says its fine under some circumstances plus you can beat them.

Killing a whole town full of people because you heard a voice in your head: nice Christian says it is wrong, the bible actively encourages it.

Killing your own family members because you hear a voice in your head: nice Christian says its wrong, bible actively encourages it.

And so on. The nice Christian is so ridiculous better versed in morality than the bible could ever be, they just don't need it. They've been programmed to believe they need it, in my opinion.

Christians have their arm buried so far up gods ass that he cant get a word of his own in for choking on their fists.

(June 25, 2015 at 8:08 am)Stimbo Wrote:

(June 24, 2015 at 11:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I've never met any Christian or Jew who honestly believe God condones rape. As I have explained in several other posts,  Randy was not saying that God condones rape.

You're switching gears between what the "God" character may or may not be written to condone and what people believe the character condones. It's a manoeuvre I call Dolphinetics, the act of leaping seamless from subject to subject in the course of the same swim, usually in the hope that we won't be able to keep up. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't realise you were doing it, while simultaneously letting you know that we can spot it quite easily.

I'm not sure what you mean, but my point is that the vast majority of Christians/Jews don't believe rape is ever acceptable (aka they don't believe God condones it), and that's what's important. I'm not trying to be complicated here. It's very simple. Whether they believe the OT was written literally, is none of my concern, personally. As long as they believe as the rest of us about rape, murder, slavery, etc, then I don't see how it matters or how they are affecting anyone. :-)

(June 24, 2015 at 10:07 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: You may recall that when the bishops did speak out against Nazism in the earliest days of the war, Hitler ordered massive bombing in retaliation, and many innocent civilians died.

Say what now? What massive bombing did Hitler order as the result of Catholic protests? Be specific: date and city should be enough.

My point, CL, is that you're switching in and out between what "God" supposedly did and what people believe about what the character supposedly did, as though those are the same thing. Were you to ask if Father Christmas brings coal to naughty children and I reply that that's not what people believe he does, can you see that I haven't answered your question?

(June 25, 2015 at 12:01 am)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote: Rob, what it boils down to is "Whatever gawd says is moral is what I believe is moral."

I can't really agree. I think what really goes on in that process is "whatever I think is moral is going to color the way I read the Bible so that I will find support for it."

Look at Randy's pretzel logic about God's approval of rape. Here we have an all-powerful deity perfectly capable of abolishing the practice of rape through means both mortal and immortal, and yet not only does he not do that, he gradates rape into different varieties, some of which are clearly more acceptable than others. The subtext of all those verses is that women are the property of men, and that rape constitutes a devaluation of property, and that in those cases, men are to be compensated. If there is any opprobrium attached to rape in those passages, it is due to economic damage, not moral considerations.

Yet Randy is arguing that his god detests rape, and that is because his god is the basis of morality. His entire argument is a non-sequitur, and Randy might even be smart enough to have known that as he set about constructing it; but he went right to the passages, hammered them into the argument even though they aren't apt, and struts away smug in his belief that the god he worships is not a monster.

And that leaves us with, "Whatever I believe is moral is what God says is moral."

(June 25, 2015 at 10:29 am)Stimbo Wrote: My point, CL, is that you're switching in and out between what "God" supposedly did and what people believe about what the character supposedly did, as though those are the same thing. Were you to ask if Father Christmas brings coal to naughty children and I reply that that's not what people believe he does, can you see that I haven't answered your question?

I apologize for "switching." I don't believe God ever did condone rape (I don't believe that story at all), so to me, all that matters is whether people believe He did. As long as they don't believe He did, then I don't care about the details.

I'd much prefer that they not condone rape etc themselves, rather than believe or not what some dusty old book says.