(June 26, 2015 at 9:37 pm)popsthebuilder Wrote: I have had none for comfort for what felt like eternity. I'm here to tell you that even depending on yourself can be difficult. There is one there always. He sees all. And has the power to help and guide.

If you've been lonely for much of your life, I can understand your tendency to gravitate towards the illusory comfort that belief in a higher power can bring.
I have sympathy for you, but I don't particularly care much for why "you are here". I live in the real world - this solid, reliable rock, and I don't need anything else in my life except my friends, my family, and my fun. If you seek to preach, you are going to have a bastard of a time with me, lad

How do you know this god is a "he"? Or does anything at all?

I was never alone. Not literally, or because of the highest power. I have always had friends, significant others, and my children. What you don't get is that I quite relished my solitude and still do. I was completely different. That's as far as I'm going to elaborate There is a reason that I am more in touch with nature. Solitude and time to really put things into perspective through observation really was part of it. Not trying to force anyone to hear anything.

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I was taught that He could stand for whomever it may concern in a respectful manner. Of course political correctness (no such thing) has changed that.

Since all theology is made up from whole cloth whose threads are distortions of reality and there is zero evidence to support 
any of its assertions, I don't argue with theological cant and raving, just point out that it hasn't any support whatsoever.

You sound like a person who's been through a lot ...Can I ask: how long have you believed is a divine creator?

(June 26, 2015 at 4:15 pm)popsthebuilder Wrote: Wtf! I didnt fkn say that!

All good.

Evil is another energy/ force altogether. Maybe you could read more than one post before actually placing words in them on my behalf.

Yeah, in all seriousness, I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say, anymore.

Before I understood I thought the sun could be seen as a god in a way. Without it we wouldn't exist.
That was some time ago though. The lord as I understand it is slightly adaptive simply because I am still learning. I have thought of all creation and the oneness that everything without a doubt is along with the creator in the way I do now generally speaking for probably about 5 years now.

(June 25, 2015 at 8:08 am)RobbyPants Wrote: I'm sure we've all heard the best of all possible worlds defense. The gist of it is that while things might look bad, and we'd wonder why a good god would allow it, perhaps God only has so much control over the universe, and this setup nets the greatest possible good.

Now, it's presuppositional as hell, and that's where it's greatest weakness lies. Once you're willing to go down that road, you can really start presupposing anything under these assumptions. The apologetic can be neatly turned against the apologist.

So, the apologist starts by assuming that things like horrible childhood illnesses are here because they are part of the greatest possible good. I'd say that sounds preposterous and that I can't possibly see how the world gets worse by removing them. The closest thing to a sane defense is for the apologist to say that the plan is so big and grand, that I can't possibly see it all, and I lack the foresight and judgment of Almighty God. Fair enough (well, not really). Lets try another scenario:

Can the apologist prove that the best possible good isn't attained by God sometimes lying to his people? Of course not. The idea is as nonfalsifiable as is the idea that God would never lie. I'll posit that we can't really understand what's "good for us", and God lies when it helps things. Their best defense would basically be to say "Nuh uh! That's not the god I believe in!", because that's all they've really got at this point: a preconceived notion of God and some nonfalsifiable defenses to prop up that god.

As long as we're willing to go that far, I could posit that the "greatest possible good" isn't really "good" in any sense that we'd use the word; it's just the exact outcome God wants. Again, can the apologist prove that childhood diseases aren't an ends unto themselves? Maybe that's exactly what he wants. It's not part of some puzzle to make the world a "better" place in some cryptic fashion; God just likes watching people suffer. Again, you'll be written off because this isn't the god that they want to picture. You only employ nonfalsifiable apologetics to uphold what you want, not what you don't.

In short, I think this illustrates how much this stock apologetic relies on circular reasoning (assume the god you want, then prove it by assuming it!) and special pleading (but don't prove gods you don't like by assuming). It's yet another tool to make the believer feel better while offering nothing of substance to a skeptic.

We don't assume God is good just because we want him to be, but the bible writers portrayed him as good and loving. Although we know that suffering hurts and is uncomfortable, we can't assume that it is bad. Why must we assume that anything that hurts or is uncomfortable is bad? We know it's not enjoyable, but we don't know that it is always bad. God also put his son through the same suffering as we go through. So if he just makes us suffer because he enjoys watching us do so, then he also enjoys watching his own son suffer. Jesus became a man and suffered in order to create a situation wherein people can have everlasting life, so I would assume that his suffering was for a good purpose, and was indeed good. There is no reason to believe that all our suffering is for a bad, rather than good, purpose, or that God is wicked because he causes it or allows it.

It's true that we can't assume that suffering is bad simply because we don't like it, but why would you assume it might be good? Someone pulling out your teeth with pliers might indeed be doing it for your own good, but he also might be doing it because he's a sadistic psycho and it gets his rocks off.

(June 27, 2015 at 8:49 pm)Stimbo Wrote: It's true that we can't assume that suffering is bad simply because we don't like it, but why would you assume it might be good? Someone pulling out your teeth with pliers might indeed be doing it for your own good, but he also might be doing it because he's a sadistic psycho and it gets his rocks off.

You just said that you can't assume that all suffering is bad, so that means that you could assume that some suffering is good. I believe that God is good, and I can observe good coming from suffering in my daily life, therefore I believe that the suffering that God brings upon us is for a good purpose.