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RE: Best of all possible worlds offense
June 27, 2015 at 10:39 pm
I understand that you believe it. We're not actually discussing your beliefs but what you are postulating as fact. If we can't assume that suffering is necessarily bad, then we can't assume it's necessarily good either. Since we cannot know either way, why would you make the assumption that it might be good?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Best of all possible worlds offense
June 27, 2015 at 10:54 pm
(This post was last modified: June 27, 2015 at 10:56 pm by Lek.)
(June 27, 2015 at 10:39 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I understand that you believe it. We're not actually discussing your beliefs but what you are postulating as fact. If we can't assume that suffering is necessarily bad, then we can't assume it's necessarily good either. Since we cannot know either way, why would you make the assumption that it might be good?
Because I, and most likely you, have encountered many instances where it has resulted in good that otherwise wouldn't have been achieved. And you're right, I believe what the bible says about God. I believe that God can cause suffering that is good and I that people can cause suffering that is not good. Here on earth we do suffer the consequences of immoral behavior by ourselves and others, but all suffering isn't for that reason. If we're relying on scientific experimentation, I imagine we would find that some suffering is good and some not. Right?
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RE: Best of all possible worlds offense
June 27, 2015 at 11:27 pm
"It's not bad suffering when god does it."
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Best of all possible worlds offense
June 28, 2015 at 2:12 am
(This post was last modified: June 28, 2015 at 2:14 am by robvalue.)
The authors of the bible do not portray God as good, that is why Christians spend so much time making excuses for him. They portrayed him as an evil sick fuck, but some people have been mentally programmed to believe he is good no matter what. It's no different to being brainwashed by a cult that worships an evil human. He is good because he says he is good, and because everyone else says he is good. (Unless you ask someone outside the cult. But why would you do that? You've been taught they just don't know the truth about Mr. Evil Torture Pants Mc. Sicko.)
Some suffering can be necessary for the greater good among humans. But we're humans, not gods. We have no power at all by comparison. And even we don't inflict the pointless suffering described in the bible because it's so clear it doesn't help anyone.
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RE: Best of all possible worlds offense
June 28, 2015 at 7:35 am
(June 27, 2015 at 10:54 pm)Lek Wrote: (June 27, 2015 at 10:39 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I understand that you believe it. We're not actually discussing your beliefs but what you are postulating as fact. If we can't assume that suffering is necessarily bad, then we can't assume it's necessarily good either. Since we cannot know either way, why would you make the assumption that it might be good?
Because I, and most likely you, have encountered many instances where it has resulted in good that otherwise wouldn't have been achieved. And you're right, I believe what the bible says about God. I believe that God can cause suffering that is good and I that people can cause suffering that is not good. Here on earth we do suffer the consequences of immoral behavior by ourselves and others, but all suffering isn't for that reason. If we're relying on scientific experimentation, I imagine we would find that some suffering is good and some not. Right?
Granted; but let's not get sidetracked, because that's not what you were advocating. You were assuming, a priori, that some suffering must be good for us, despite not being in a position to determine that. Relying on tradition, that we've experienced suffering which turned out good later on, is one thing - but now your cart is before your horse here. Essentially you're boiling it down to "I'm choking on a fish bone, but it'll be fine because up to now these things have turned out okay". One can hope that we grow as a result of suffering, of course we can; but it is incredibly dangerous to conclude that such suffering is fine because of that.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Best of all possible worlds offense
June 28, 2015 at 11:51 am
(June 28, 2015 at 7:35 am)Stimbo Wrote: (June 27, 2015 at 10:54 pm)Lek Wrote: Because I, and most likely you, have encountered many instances where it has resulted in good that otherwise wouldn't have been achieved. And you're right, I believe what the bible says about God. I believe that God can cause suffering that is good and I that people can cause suffering that is not good. Here on earth we do suffer the consequences of immoral behavior by ourselves and others, but all suffering isn't for that reason. If we're relying on scientific experimentation, I imagine we would find that some suffering is good and some not. Right?
Granted; but let's not get sidetracked, because that's not what you were advocating. You were assuming, a priori, that some suffering must be good for us, despite not being in a position to determine that. Relying on tradition, that we've experienced suffering which turned out good later on, is one thing - but now your cart is before your horse here. Essentially you're boiling it down to "I'm choking on a fish bone, but it'll be fine because up to now these things have turned out okay". One can hope that we grow as a result of suffering, of course we can; but it is incredibly dangerous to conclude that such suffering is fine because of that.
We see things from different perspectives and can't come to a mutual agreement on this issue because I believe in God and life after death, and you don't. I believe that much of the benefit we derive from suffering comes from making us into people who rely on God, thus bringing us closer to him. It also gives us the opportunity to show love to and to help one another.
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RE: Best of all possible worlds offense
July 1, 2015 at 11:57 am
(June 27, 2015 at 6:31 pm)Lek Wrote: We don't assume God is good just because we want him to be, but the bible writers portrayed him as good and loving. Although we know that suffering hurts and is uncomfortable, we can't assume that it is bad. Why must we assume that anything that hurts or is uncomfortable is bad? We know it's not enjoyable, but we don't know that it is always bad. God also put his son through the same suffering as we go through. So if he just makes us suffer because he enjoys watching us do so, then he also enjoys watching his own son suffer. Jesus became a man and suffered in order to create a situation wherein people can have everlasting life, so I would assume that his suffering was for a good purpose, and was indeed good. There is no reason to believe that all our suffering is for a bad, rather than good, purpose, or that God is wicked because he causes it or allows it.
If you can achieve something in two ways, and one way entails more suffering than the other, then the one with more suffering involves unnecessary suffering. I submit that unnecessary suffering is indeed bad.
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