(June 28, 2015 at 11:06 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 9:59 am)PiousPaladin Wrote: Christianity has only grown in numbers since its founding, God also promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail over his Church. The word of God is not to be doubted and his promise is true.

I am not a Catholic because it feels good. God calls us to be loyal not happy. Obedience to his will will lead to eternal salvation and joy in his presence, but in this life such base concerns as pleasure are irrelevant.

If I may offer a slight correct: God calls us to be holy not happy.

Carry on.

Both you and the OP have stated that you aren't called to be happy. Aren't you happy with your life, Randy? For the most part, I am happy with my own life so I find it sad that you might not be.

Are you a traditional Catholic also? Do you think homosexuals should be castrated too? Would you silence atheists from publically speaking their minds?

(June 28, 2015 at 12:11 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: It's written on your heart IATIA. Duh.

What?!?! Call the cardiologist, STAT!!

(June 28, 2015 at 12:11 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: It's written on your heart IATIA. Duh.

So if I cut my chest open, pry the ribs apart and yank my heart out I will be able to read it then?  Would not that be too late?

(June 28, 2015 at 12:14 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 11:58 am)Randy Carson Wrote: If there were no heaven and no hell, then what would be the purpose of paying any attention to God at all? What you're proposing is that there would be no consequences for ANY of our decisions (beyond our valuation of their effects on others). You would be completely free to do whatever you want (according to the dictates of your own conscience), because in the end, it all comes to nothing anyway. So, sure...ignore God...He's irrelevant.

But that's NOT this situation in which we find ourselves. (It is the situation you believe to be the case, but that is a problem owing to your lack of faith.) We have been shown the alternatives (heaven & hell) as well as the loving nature of a God with whom we may have a personal relationship. God is love, He loves us, and He is lovable. Choosing to do what God wants because we love Him and desire to be with Him for eternity makes sense in that context.

However, there have been many saints whose experience of God's love was SO profound that they were able to say they would willingly endure the pains of hell for eternity if that was what God wanted.

I can honestly say that I'm not at that level.

Again your doing what gods want because you want love in heaven and not hell, if he was offering neither you would not  be willing to submit to him, so it boils down to what makes you happy. You think your options are profound love in heaven or eternal torture in hell, your not picking heaven because you love god, your picking heaven because its preferable to hell.

There are two levels:

Level 1: Fear of hell/desire for heaven.
Of course we fear hell and desire heaven. That is the only sane response if heaven and hell are real.

Level 2: Love of God.
We desire to do whatever pleases God purely out of love for Him. This level is not concerned with self (heaven and hell).

Level 1 is less mature; level 2 is more mature. Similarly, our love for a spouse can be more or less mature.

Quote:Also the fact that you think an entity is showing you profound love by giving you a choice between eternal worship or eternal torture, tells me you don't care who this entity is and your really only concerned with where your ass ends up.

Not exactly. God has shown profound love for me by dying on a cross which makes it possible for me to choose.

(June 28, 2015 at 11:46 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 11:40 am)IATIA Wrote: If that were where it stopped, but it does not.  Christians feel it is their duty and mission to institute laws. policies, etc, that undermine what "feels good" for me.  That is the issue.  Keep it in your own backyard and we are just fine with whatever flavour kool-aid you prefer.

Be careful what you ask for...

What does your comment mean, Randy? IATIA sounded pretty reasonable. You can believe what you want just don't try to pass laws based solely on your religion.

(June 28, 2015 at 12:23 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: There are two levels:

Level 1: Fear of hell/desire for heaven.
Of course we fear hell and desire heaven. That is the only sane response if heaven and hell are real.

Level 2: Love of God.
We desire to do whatever pleases God purely out of love for Him. This level is not concerned with self (heaven and hell).

Level 1 is less mature; level 2 is more mature. Similarly, our love for a spouse can be more or less mature.

So a battered spouse is level one. "Please don't beat me again. I love you!"

That is the real issue with your "loving and merciful god".

(June 28, 2015 at 12:15 pm)Nope Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 11:06 am)Randy Carson Wrote: If I may offer a slight correct: God calls us to be holy not happy.

Carry on.

Both you and the OP have stated that you aren't called to be happy. Aren't you happy with your life, Randy? For the most part, I am happy with my own life so I find it sad that you might not be.

I am happy, but my point is that happiness in this life usually depends on things that are largely beyond our control and that can change. When they do, our level happiness can also change. This is temporary.

Holiness is eternal.

Quote:Are you a traditional Catholic also? Do you think homosexuals should be castrated too? Would you silence atheists from publically speaking their minds?

I consider myself to be a traditional Catholic in the sense that I agree with the Catechism and the Magisterium of the Church on all matters of faith and morals including natural family planning, divorce, homosexuality, etc. I am not a Traditional Catholic in the sense of being a member of the SSPX.

Homosexuals should not be castrated.

Atheists should be afforded the same rights of free speech that our laws give to all citizens.

(June 28, 2015 at 11:10 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

Quote:3.  Do you miss the good old days where you could silence heretics by the simple expedient of lighting them on fire?

I don't, personally. But I can understand why others thought differently in times gone by.

Randy, you could understand why someone would light another human on fire and listen to them scream in agony? You are going to have to explain this to me.

(June 28, 2015 at 12:29 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: I am happy, but my point is that happiness in this life usually depends on things that are largely beyond our control and that can change. When they do, our level happiness can also change. This is temporary.

Holiness is eternal.

Apparently some of the angels were not so "happy".

(June 28, 2015 at 12:24 pm)Nope Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 11:46 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Be careful what you ask for...

What does your comment mean, Randy? IATIA sounded pretty reasonable. You can believe what you want just don't try to pass laws based solely on your religion.

I believe the days will come (and it won't be long) before our society has descended into a level of moral darkness not known since Sodom and Gomorrah.

Then men will long for someone to teach them the ways of God, but will anyone be found who remembers?