Try this one:

If any of the ridiculous crazy shit in the bible happened, then it's all long since blown over, and it has nothing to do with me. All relevant supernatural entities have since lost interest and stopped interacting with us like they once did. Now all we get are "personal experiences" which are indistinguishable from hallucinations. If these are anything more than just in our heads, these entities are screwing about with us and making us look ridiculous by providing non-verifiable "evidence".

So fuck them, right?

(July 3, 2015 at 2:01 am)robvalue Wrote: Now all we get are "personal experiences" which are indistinguishable from hallucinations.

Reading Richard Carriers book, he says that in the period that the NT was written, hallucinations were seen as far more trustworthy than regular experiences. So if person A claimed to have a halucination about Jesus, this was much more likely to be believed to be real, than a so called real experience. The most respected men were ones that hallucinated more.

It's a bit like nowadays believing someone who is high on LSD or a schizophrenic versus someone that isn't.


Having said that, the bible really has nothing to do with I'm an Atheist. The fact that it's totally ridiculous provides amusement and bewilderment that anyone would take it seriously, but this is a side matter.

(June 17, 2015 at 7:12 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: For an atheist (ostensibly with an "open mind") to examine evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus is almost a farcical enterprise from the start (at least from a Christian perspective) because he commences the analysis with the extremely hostile presuppositions of:

1. No miracles can occur in the nature of things.
   
2. #1 logically follows because, of course, under fundamental atheist presuppositions, there is no God to perform any miracle.
   
3. The New Testament documents are fundamentally untrustworthy and historically suspect, having been written by gullible, partisan Christians; particularly because, for most facts presented therein, there is not (leaving aside archaeological evidences) written secular corroborating evidence.
   
4. Some atheists even claim (or suspect) that Jesus didn't exist at all (making such a topic even more absurd and ludicrous (given that premise) than it already is in atheist eyes).  
   

Somehow, despite these presuppositions, the atheist still manages to say with a straight face that he is being open minded about whether the resurrection happened and that he is examining the issues honestly and without bias. Sure he is.

Why do atheists honestly believe that their examination of the resurrection is an objective endeavor on their part, as if they will come to any other conclusion than the foregone one that they have already decided long since, upon the adoption of their atheism?

In addition to these objections to Christianity, it is a given in atheist circle that the Catholic Church must always be criticized, and this is true even if atheists are offering contradictory criticisms simultaneously. For example, some atheists are quick to criticize the popes (and the Church as a whole) for supposedly declaring things by fiat and with raw power, apart from rational deliberation and intellectual reflection. Yet, if the popes wait centuries to let the Church reflect and ponder important issues (as in the case of the Assumption [1950] or  papal infallibility [1870]), then the popes get blasted for being indecisive and lacking authority.

It's the amusing, ironic spectacle of people illogically accusing Christians of being illogical. If Christians do one thing, it’s because they are wrong and stupid and illogical; if they do the exact opposite, it’s because they are still wrong and stupid and illogical. And on and on it goes. The only thing that critics of Catholicism "know" about it with certainty is that the Catholic Church is always wrong.

And if Christians actually engage atheist arguments with counter-arguments, then their integrity is called into question because they’re simply making it all up anyway. But if they don’t respond to the atheist arguments, then it means the atheist is on to something, and Christians are refusing to acknowledge it. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Some atheists (especially former Christians) specialize in relentlessly trying to poke holes in the Bible and dredging up any conceivable so-called "contradiction" that they can find. It's the hyper-rationalistic, "can't see the forest for the trees" game. Such a person approaches the Bible like a butcher approaches a hog. Their minds are already made up. If they go looking for errors and "contradictions" they will assuredly always "find" them.

And if a Christian spends what is almost certain to be a significant amount time required to research and refute one of these "contradictions" in order to show how it is not, in fact, a contradiction, the atheists simply ignore that as of no consequence and go their merry way seeking out more of the same. It never ends. It's like a boat with a hundred holes in the bottom. The Christian painstakingly patches up the last one while the atheist on the other side of the boat merrily drills another one to patch.

This scatter shot approach gives the atheists a big advantage. They just keep flinging charges from all categories of apologetics until they hit an area where the Christian under fire isn’t very strong. Then they declare victory by default, since the apologist is forced to say “I don’t know.” Saying “I don’t know” is the mark of an excellent scientist, but a terrible apologist, apparently. But if a theist should fail to ever admit they don’t know something, this is a sure sign they’re full of it. So, theism loses again, either way.

In all likelihood, judging from these experiences, any Christian responses will likely have no effect on the hard-core atheist. But they can help other Christians to see the bankruptcy of atheist anti-biblical arguments and those on the fence to avoid falling into the same errors of logic and fallacious worldviews built upon such errors.

And that is the whole goal of apologetics: to help people (by God's grace) to avoid theological and philosophical errors and to be more confident in their Christian and Catholic beliefs by understanding the solid intellectual rationales for them.

Apologists remove obstacles and roadblocks. What each person will do with that information is a function of their minds and free wills and God's grace, and that is out of the apologist's hands.

I really can't add much to what others have said. Many of the responses that followed your post mirror how I feel so to drone them out again would be an inefficient use of my time. What I can add is anecdotal information. You may know some of my story Randy. I grew up believing so strongly. If I wasn't a god-fearing, bible believing christian than I don't know who was. I truly believed on faith alone and it wasn't until quite a few years ago that I had to really examine everything more closely. 

I did not hold the presuppositions that you presented. In fact, it was quite the opposite. The presuppositions I held were that of the christian view (well, at least one of thousands that are available, but that's an entire different can of worms). When I truly started studying, I didn't have to "try to relentlessly poke holes in the bible" as you stated. The bible did that for me. 

I walked away because questions built up that had no satisfactory answers, and I could no longer ignore them. I walked away because I could no longer honestly believe in the claims and doctrines of the Christian faith. I once believed very strongly in god. I never thought that I could let go of my belief in god, but it happened. My path to atheism was not an easy one. I didn’t just wake up one morning and decide that I no longer believed in god. The road to atheism for me was difficult and extremely painful. I really wanted God to exist very badly, but the more I learned, the more I came to realize that god is a myth - a powerful myth, but a myth nonetheless.

I once believed very strongly in the power of prayer. It seemed like I was always praying about something going on in my life! I also, of course, regularly prayed for other people, including my pastor and church leadership. 

I absolutely loved Charismatic-style of praise and worship. I could literally spend hours in worship if the opportunity arose, just basking in the presence of god and being awed by his holiness and love. I can remember times when I felt wrapped in JOY beyond description. I can still access those feelings. I remember how great it was. But I no longer believe that the god those emotions were directed toward actually exists. And I understand the incredible power of belief. Once the human mind is convinced of the truth of something, the incredible power of belief takes over and shields us from seeing the validity of any other point of view. The power of belief can shield us from reality itself!

I once believed that Jesus was not only the Son of god, but also that he was god Incarnate - god Himself come to earth. I believed firmly in the virgin birth and in the sinless nature and life of Jesus Christ. I believed absolutely that he died for my sins on the cross and I also firmly believed that he rose from the dead again for my sanctification and justification before god the Father. I never would have thought that the day would come when I would give up those beliefs, but it did. I now accept that Jesus Christ probably was a myth. I don't know for sure. None of us do but that seems more likely than any other option presented. He never lived, never died, and never rose again. That is the conclusion that the research I have done over the last several years has led me to.

I once believed that the bible was the “Word of God”. I believed it with all of my heart. I just knew that it was the inspired word of the holy god that I loved to worship and be around. It was just obvious to me. But now I realize that it is nothing but a collection of ancient religious mythology, with no god behind it as the author. The bible clearly reflects the ignorance and prejudices of the Bronze Age men who wrote it. It is a book of its time, not a Book for the Ages.

So, why am I no longer a christian? It boils down to one thing - education. I know a lot more about the bible now as an atheist than I did as a christian. I know a lot more about christian doctrines now as an atheist than I did as a Christian. I wasn't an atheist before I gathered this knowledge. No, this knowledge resulted in my atheism. I have a different understanding of god now that I no longer believe that he actually exists. Education has made the difference. The education I gained reading both christian and skeptical material has made the difference. But it’s a good difference. I know how to think critically now. I know how to think for myself. I know how to give my own life meaning apart from religion. I know how to live life happily free from the chains of religious mythology. My christian experience was not a bad one in totality, the indoctrination as a child was horrifying but on into my adult years when I started leaving that behind, it wasn't bad. I have no doubt in my mind that I was a “real” christian. But education stretches the mind and the mind cannot return to its original condition once it has been stretched. I left the faith primarily for intellectual reasons. I can no longer honestly embrace the doctrines of the faith, and so - I am no longer a Christian.

That's an amazing story.

Would you say that overall you feel better or worse now, than the nicer years of your faith?

(July 3, 2015 at 8:45 am)robvalue Wrote: That's an amazing story.

Would you say that overall you feel better or worse now, than the nicer years of your faith?

I would say slightly better. Only slightly because I have not fully broke off the chains since I have not come out as a non-believer. I feel like my life has more meaning now. It had meaning then but the meaning was just to live for god, striving not to make mistakes, not to sin, not to lead others astray. It was meaningful, but it was bondage.

Now, the meaning is what I assign to it. Honestly, if I knew I was going to die tonight I would not spend it lamenting my past. I would spend it basking in the utter joy that I have found in "living" and knowing what a great privilege it has been to spend 37 years on this planet we call the blue dot, in a solar system, galaxy and universe beyond explanation. What an amazing experience.

I'm glad to hear you feel better. I'm sure the feeling will strengthen given time for the bullshit to properly fade away.

Talking to lots of like minded heathens will hopefully speed up the process