(June 28, 2015 at 4:14 am)Neimenovic Wrote: You saying I'm a sinner in need of a savior pretty much ended any discussion there was to be had.

To make it even, I think you're a jerk in need of a book other than the bible.

We all are, dude. Don't think I was singling you out.

(June 20, 2015 at 6:29 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 3:52 pm)francismjenkins Wrote: Who cares ... I'm not married, and yet I've never once ever thought about committing a despicable act like raping a child. But it's not even the pedophilia itself that I find the most problematic, it's all the senior church officials who protected these predators and created a culture where this grotesque treatment of children was allowed to thrive.

I've addressed this repeatedly, so there is no need to repeat what I've said in this thread and elsewhere. However, I would like to ask one question:

How, precisely, did the senior officials of the Catholic Church create a culture in which the abuse of children was allowed to thrive?

Hmmm, where do I start? Moving offender priests to other churches, turning a blind eye to complaints of abuse, systematically concealing this culture of abuse, etc. Indeed, even Pope Francis has openly promised to deal with church leaders who have done these things.

Quote:You tell me that yours is a church guided by a holy spirit, but how can any reasonable mind view this behavior as consistent with the idea of divine guidance (much less guidance by a benevolent and loving deity)? Fucking ridiculous.


Why is this difficult? It is not Catholic doctrine that individual priests and bishops are infallible (prevented from teaching error) nor are they impeccable (faultless, free from all sin).

These were individuals who made sinful choices of their own free will apart from and in opposition to the teaching of the Church and the will of God.

How convenient .... plausible deniability LOL (the RCC is as good at political spin as anyone)

(June 28, 2015 at 3:07 pm)francismjenkins Wrote:

Quote:You tell me that yours is a church guided by a holy spirit, but how can any reasonable mind view this behavior as consistent with the idea of divine guidance (much less guidance by a benevolent and loving deity)? Fucking ridiculous.


Why is this difficult? It is not Catholic doctrine that individual priests and bishops are infallible (prevented from teaching error) nor are they impeccable (faultless, free from all sin).

These were individuals who made sinful choices of their own free will apart from and in opposition to the teaching of the Church and the will of God.

How convenient .... plausible deniability LOL (the RCC is as good at political spin as anyone)

The Church is made up of people, Francis.

God has given people free will, and sometimes they misuse it. Christians, too.

(June 23, 2015 at 5:43 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 23, 2015 at 8:22 am)loganonekenobi Wrote: The greatest fear I have is that with enough consent we in this country may return to a theocracy that although brought us out of the fall of the roman empire did much atrocity to the world in the name of God.  Do you believe that today if that happened I and other non believers would have much hope for a life in this country?
On that note (for example) abortion is a hot issue in the  Catholic world.  Why? is it because of Gods words or because  killing babies is generaly not a pleasent thought?  Personaly and as a medical guy I know that abortion is not a good alternitive to unwanted prego however the circular logic in Catholisism is that abortion is bad but contriceptives are not allowed so you cant have sex unless you want kids and you probably dont want kids untill you are married which satisfies the desires of God (or at least the old Jewish laws which were aimed at controlling women).  To me all this seems like control mechenisms diguised in the idea of caring for babies.  Do you see what i mean?  You might  truely be concerned for the unborn but the pope wants nothing more than control of as many people as possible[emphasis added] and so uses the emotions of the masses to get  what he (the historicly controlling church) wants.

For what purpose does the pope want to control as many people as possible?

Quote:Yet the amount of lives destroyed by the idea that  every one MUST be Christian makes me doubt that the church fathers really care about life.  You might... but they dont....not historicly.
I'm not discounting the good things the church has done like advancing science and helping the less fortunate although i believe we are capable of doing these things without a god but that is for another disgustion.
I might believe that for maybe 50 years of modern church rule that I wouldn't be outright slain but what about 100 years...200 years?  Did you know that somewhere in the book of Corinthians [emphasis added] it is written that non believers must be killed and this is said in other places in the bible as well.  How long before open season on non catholics would come into law?

Which verse in Corinthians do you have in mind here?

2 Chronicles 15:12-13....that's one but there are several others that basicly lend legitimicy to harsh treatment of any who are not believers.
the history of the catholic church has always been one of money and power. Look at the conquest of the native americans. Even if you believe that the pope is a kind gentle soul that wants to save everyone from hell and not a man that wants the power the church used to have 400 years ago, the fact is that the bible lends to either converting every one who can be converted or killing/shunning/outcasting those who cant.
sorry it took so long to see you responce i'm new to the forum.

(June 28, 2015 at 7:36 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 3:07 pm)francismjenkins Wrote: How convenient .... plausible deniability LOL (the RCC is as good at political spin as anyone)

The Church is made up of people, Francis.

God has given people free will, and sometimes they misuse it. Christians, too.

Where the hell was god in all of this? You constantly talk about the free will of the priest but what about the child's free will being violated? I think Tracie Harris said it best, “You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, ‘When you’re done, I’m going to punish you. ’If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your God.”

(July 5, 2015 at 7:17 am)loganonekenobi Wrote:

(June 23, 2015 at 5:43 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: For what purpose does the pope want to control as many people as possible?


Which verse in Corinthians do you have in mind here?

2 Chronicles 15:12-13....that's one but there are several others that basicly lend legitimicy to harsh treatment of any who are not believers.
the history of the catholic church has always been one of money and power.  Look at the conquest of the native americans.  Even if you believe that the pope is a kind gentle soul that wants to save everyone from hell and not a man that wants the power the church used to have 400 years ago, the  fact is that the bible lends to either converting every one who can be converted or killing/shunning/outcasting those who cant.  
sorry it took so long to see you responce i'm new to the forum.

I thought you said Corinthians. You have cited Chronicles.

(July 5, 2015 at 7:58 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 28, 2015 at 7:36 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: The Church is made up of people, Francis.

God has given people free will, and sometimes they misuse it. Christians, too.

Where the hell was god in all of this? You constantly talk about the free will of the priest but what about the child's free will being violated? I think Tracie Harris said it best, “You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, ‘When you’re done, I’m going to punish you. ’If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your God.”

Covered earlier in the thread in some depth.

(July 5, 2015 at 8:06 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 5, 2015 at 7:58 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: Where the hell was god in all of this? You constantly talk about the free will of the priest but what about the child's free will being violated? I think Tracie Harris said it best, “You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, ‘When you’re done, I’m going to punish you. ’If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your God.”

Covered earlier in the thread in some depth.

Ya I doubt that

(July 5, 2015 at 8:07 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(July 5, 2015 at 8:06 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Covered earlier in the thread in some depth.

Ya I doubt that

Which one is your god doing? Making rape happen or Letting rape happen? Pretty simple question to answer.