(July 9, 2015 at 5:25 pm)tonechaser77 Wrote:

(July 9, 2015 at 1:27 pm)Drich Wrote: Does your definition embody paid employment? no you say? then your definition is not as expanded as the greek word used in the NT to describe slavery.

That is literally because your definition of slavery is not as expansive as the greek word dullos. Because again the word dullos can mean a paid employee/servant. Matter of fact the word is used interchangeably with slave/servant over 120 times, with contextual preference being the only divider in the text.

In the greek there are 5 different words with 5 different aspects or meanings that we in the English translate into the single word 'love.' the same is true here with the word slave, but in reverse. The greeks have one word to describe 5 different aspects of 'service/employment' in the English.

Just because a literal translation will always translate Dullos into Slave/Servant does not mean that the bible is speaking of the 17th century cotton plantation variety.

Again you are only describing one aspect of slavery.

Ok... So?

You do understand That the Old Testament represents a completely different religion that is no longer practiced anywhere in the world right? That is why in the New testament OT Jews who Practiced the rules and regulations found in the NT were known to have been converted To Christianity correct? And you are aware that The way 'slaves' were viewed and treated was indeed augmented from the Old to the New covenants right?

That's a simple question to answer.
I know the bible is God's word, because in the bible are a set of direction for one to literally find and have a interactive relationship with him.
I found and followed said instructions, resulting in promised relationship with the Holy Spirit. The same Holy Spirit that inspired the bible in the first place. it is through the Holy Spirit that God's bible has been verified.

Actually it happens in reverse order. I know or am given a precept and then verify it in the bible through study.

Actually the bible only claims to ever be the truth of God, and the tool used to find God. With in the pages of the bible it never claims to be infallible.

Uh.. no. try again sport.

examples?

All this is completely beside the point. Even if I grant you every point that you have made, what you're left with in regards to slavery is a view of moral relativism and fluidity where the system gradually regresses to the point we are at today. I just so happen to agree that this is what happened, however not by any inspiration of god. 

Quote:You do understand That the Old Testament represents a completely different religion that is no longer practiced anywhere in the world right? That is why in the New testament OT Jews who Practiced the rules and regulations found in the NT were known to have been converted To Christianity correct? And you are aware that The way 'slaves' were viewed and treated was indeed augmented from the Old to the New covenants right?

You agree that the god of the NT is the god of the OT right? And I would hope you would agree that the form of slavery practiced in the OT was horrendous and not how people should have been treated regardless of who they were.  So you would agree that god commanded or in the LEAST condoned horrendous acts in the past then. Let's hope you've forgiven him for that. 

The problem is that you and the biblical writers take one word (in this case the word for slavery) and assign multiple meanings from the worst possible definition to the best possible definition. What does this cause? Major confusion, which your god is not the author of, at least I thought. Just think; god, in his infinite wisdom and omnipotence, could have avoided all the pain and suffering caused from slavery (regardless of the what definition you use for it)  by simply adjudicating it from the very beginning. It could have been one of the 600+ laws in the Torah. Problem solved. He certainly didn't tolerate children being unruly, as they received a death sentence. Why didn't he show the same intolerance for slavery?   

Quote:I know the bible is God's word, because in the bible are a set of direction for one to literally find and have a interactive relationship with him.

I found and followed said instructions, resulting in promised relationship with the Holy Spirit. The same Holy Spirit that inspired the bible in the first place. it is through the Holy Spirit that God's bible has been verified.

What you have a relationship with is your mind and confirmation bias. That's where all this rests. As I stated before, there is no verifiable evidence for the existence of a god. The god of the gaps argument is closing by the minute and if god exists, it sure doesn't seem to care about making himself known in a way that would truly be seen and accepted by everyone. And why would he not do this? Why would he not want all to believe? Your statement about the holy spirit is merely an argument from religious experience, a self-authenticating mystical mind set. 

Your system is broke. It doesn't stand up to reason and logic and I sure hope that someday you will see that. In the mean time, if you continue to believe, and I have no doubt that you will, I just hope that you are at least acting in a way that will help people, in our world as we know it. I may not come to agreement with you concerning god or anything spiritual but we should at least be able to work together to change the world with regards to poverty, slavery, human rights, clean water, disease eradication, etc. I wish you the best Brich. 

The Quran says in Surah 2 verse 177:

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God-fearing.

Too bad that the bible never has a single passage this clear in regards to slavery, I guess Mohammad was right, the bible has been corrupted.

(July 9, 2015 at 1:42 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(July 9, 2015 at 11:11 am)Drich Wrote: Not bad, except you left out you truly don't have a mind of your own now, just an illusion of it.

I wish I could stick this on the home page in bold giant letters as the definitive Christian teaching. Drich speaks for the Church. Show me the post where Randy or the Catholic Lady contradict him.

Actually Drich does not speak for a or the Church. Drich speaks where the bible Speaks and remain silent where the bible is silent. The church often speaks where the bible is silent.

[quote='tonechaser77' pid='986687' dateline='1436477128']
All this is completely beside the point. Even if I grant you every point that you have made, what you're left with in regards to slavery is a view of moral relativism and fluidity where the system gradually regresses to the point we are at today. I just so happen to agree that this is what happened, however not by any inspiration of god. 

[quote]You agree that the god of the NT is the god of the OT right?[/quote]
We are talking the differences in RELIGION/Worship/Rules Regulations. OT represents OT Judaism which is completely different for the RELIGION of Christianity. The 'Allah' of Islam is supposed to be the same God of the OT, but again the religious practices vastly differ. In the case with slavery the NT view of it Vastly differs from The OT.

[quote] And I would hope you would agree that the form of slavery practiced in the OT was horrendous and not how people should have been treated regardless of who they were.[/quote]No. I can see a need for those practices with in the time frame they were carried out/permitted. We can not employ or try and use out modern standard of 'morality' on a culture and time that far removed from our own. Survival of the Species and the eventual evolution to our current soceities could have not been possible if not for slaves. While I do feel sorry for them, they play a vital role in keeping humanity going and growing. Without them life as we know it would not be possible.

[quote]  So you would agree that god commanded or in the LEAST condoned horrendous acts in the past then. Let's hope you've forgiven him for that. 
[/quote]There is nothing to forgive, because I make no qualms in identifying and accepting that my current life style would not be possible if not for the hard work of slaves. (past and present.)

[quote]The problem is that you and the biblical writers take one word (in this case the word for slavery) and assign multiple meanings from the worst possible definition to the best possible definition. What does this cause? Major confusion, which your god is not the author of, at least I thought. [/quote]
There should not be confusion because one when submitting to God must be prepared to be the worst possible to the best possible example of the word slave. We must accept that word in it's entirety and be ready to be the dog meat version of the word for God. (and He does call people to be eaten by Dogs, literally) At the same time He places other slave/servants incharge of large cities and even countries. The bible uses this word to describe the complete range of what we might be called to do.

[quote]Just think; god, in his infinite wisdom and omnipotence, could have avoided all the pain and suffering caused from slavery (regardless of the what definition you use for it)  by simply adjudicating it from the very beginning. It could have been one of the 600+ laws in the Torah. Problem solved. He certainly didn't tolerate children being unruly, as they received a death sentence. Why didn't he show the same intolerance for slavery?   [/quote]Because Slavery then like now serves a purpose in human society. Pretending that slavery is not still alive and well only serves the self righteous in giving the illusion of moral superiority over those who are not ashamed in admitting the truth. It also allows those who do keep slaves the freedom to treat them virtually anyway they want because the majority of the people in society believe slaves do not exist if the word is not used. Wake Up foolish people! Just because we relable the jobs and the workers we have doing those jobs does not mean slavery is gone. Many of those very same jobs are still required by society in order to make modern life possible, we again just re lable them in the 'modern age' and poof we think slavery no longer exists because the word is not used to describe a worker and his young children hand picking a harvest, well below any type of regulated minmum wage. This goes on in the United States Now! All anyone need do is file themselves are an agricultural business and produce a crop or commodity of some kind, and all federal regulation concerning work place safty, child labor laws and minimum wage requirements no longer apply. Why? because this country could not produce food at a cost that the majority could afford.

Last I checked There is anywhere from a 100 to 900% mark up on the food we buy at the supermarket (depending on how much processing or regulation it has to go through to get to market) for example Milk is sold from the farms from anywhere from .75 to 1.25 a gallon from most dairy farms to a bulk processor. what do we pay? 4.50 to 6.25 a gallon.

I was told that to sell milk for .75 cents a gallon the farmer has to be able to produce it for .35 cents per gallon. 3/4 of which goes into the cows, feed and equipment. the rest is divided up among the employees/profit. (they get paid by the gallon, or the field, or whatever the farmer is doing to make money.) either way it is literally pennies on the dollar, and well below a living wage. so how do these people work and live if they do not own the farm? the farms subsidize housing/shanties.


[quote]What you have a relationship with is your mind and confirmation bias. [/quote]How can you possibly make that assertion if you do not know me nor the circumstances in which I have my Relationship with God if you are not genuinely working from your own confirmation bias?

[quote]That's where all this rests. As I stated before, there is no verifiable evidence for the existence of a god.[/quote]Again not true. You in your efferts to maintain this confirmation bias 'no evidence of God' Invalidate all evidence God offers, slowly narrowing what God offers to the point that demands God offer 'evidence' (Scientific manupliation of himself/To be summoned or controlled by man) that contradicts His very nature.

The Demand for the types of 'evidences' one needs for a blind scientist to confirm God would indeed prove God is not who or what He says He is.

Does this not bother you or have you not thought your demand for proof through?

[quote] The god of the gaps argument is closing by the minute and if god exists, it sure doesn't seem to care about making himself known in a way that would truly be seen and accepted by everyone. [/quote]
I have asked/said this from the beginning. What about science/discovery precludes God? what in your opinion demands God must live in the gaps?

[quote]And why would he not do this? Why would he not want all to believe? Your statement about the holy spirit is merely an argument from religious experience, a self-authenticating mystical mind set. [/b][/quote]Because As He has said many many times in scripture, 'not all of us belong to Him.' This life has been given to US apart or separated from His known glory so that we may freely choose whether or not we want to spend eternity with Him if we are called to do so.
[quote]
Your system is broke. It doesn't stand up to reason and logic and I sure hope that someday you will see that.[/quote]My system only seems broke if you are trying to shoe horn it into what you personal understand of Christianity. of course it does not fit! If my understanding of God was as limited as your own what makes you think I would not have come to the same conclusion? or are you working under a confirmation bias that all who believe in God believe in a vacuum?

[quote] In the mean time, if you continue to believe, and I have no doubt that you will, I just hope that you are at least acting in a way that will help people, in our world as we know it. I may not come to agreement with you concerning god or anything spiritual but we should at least be able to work together to change the world with regards to poverty, slavery, human rights, clean water, disease eradication, etc. I wish you the best Brich. 
[/quote]
Absolutely, but inorder to make real progress in any of those areas we must stop tring to be politically correct/morally superior than everyone who lived before this day and time, and admit our own need and dependency on the things that keep the poor poor. that makes slaves of men, the dirty our water, and the like.

(July 9, 2015 at 3:01 pm)Godschild Wrote: I see you're using the ignorance of your fellow atheist to promote yourself again, have you no shame. Thought you could fool me too, I assume. Let's show everyone what you left out.
1 Corinthians 12:2-3 You know when you were pagans, you were led astray to the dumb idols, however you were led. 3) Therefore I make it know to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God say, "Jesus is accursed;" and no one can say , "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

First of all in the simplest explanation, of the above verses, Paul was saying no one can confess Jesus as Savior unless that person has the knowledge from the Holy Spirit, (Jesus told Peter the same thing when he said to Jesus, "You are the Son of God"). Being that you do not believe Jesus is the Son of God you haven't done anything but utter a few words that have no meaning to you. Since you didn't do the former as scriptures says, you most certainly did the latter as scripture says. By the words from Paul through the Holy Spirit you have been a deceiver to your fellow atheist and a liar to yourself, all known to God your judge.

GC

Rhonda Wrote:Adding the other part of that passage does not change the  meaning of the part I quoted. And my original asswerion that you are wrong abot us having a choice to  accept Jesus still stands.

You left out the rest of the verse because it would prove you wrong and it does any sensible person can set it does. 
Now I guess I'll have to explain this further, though I shouldn't have to since you went to a Bible school. The verses is saying you can't call Jesus Lord and mean it unless you have accepted Him as your savior and lord, which you have not, stated by your own words. You can't even come to know Christ without the Holy Spirit revealing to you who He is, so you might utter in meaningless words Jesus is Lord, what you can't do as the scripture says is to state with convection Jesus is Lord, because He isn't your Lord. You'r trying to play word games that a twelve year old could see through.

Mark 4: 110-13 Wrote:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.   11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:   12 That seeing they may see , and not perceive ; and hearing they may hear , and not understand ; lest at any time they should be converted , and their sins should be forgiven them.   13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Rhonda Wrote:I have the freewill to fornicate or abstain from it. I am no slave, but according to this passage there are some whom Jesus did not want to be saved. If anybody goes to hell, this passage says it's because Jesus did not want them to be forgiven. That's cool with me, If a god who doesn't exist wants to hide himself from me then well.

When did I say you were a slave, I've always said you have choice, you can't be a slave to God because you do not believe in Him. He can and may use you to advance His absolute will or even to help teach Christians, I've seen it happen here a number of times, for me it was very recent, not through you but another atheist. Jesus isn't hiding from you, He's been waiting on you! As for the scriptures you used in Mark you've not understood it correctly, Jesus said that God desires all to come into salvation and Jesus also being God could not desire any to go to hell, including you.

Rhonda Wrote:You and Drich say we never had freewill. Ohther Christians say God allowed sin  because he eanted us to have freewill.  And you all read the same Bible and accuse each other of misinterpreting it. I have no use for a book that's so open to interpretation that no one can agree about what even the slightest thing means.

That's correct we do and it's true, as I said before in this conversation if you had freewill you could override God's absolute will and that just not going to happen. God gave free choice before sin entered this world, it wasn't choice that brought sin into this world it was using choice to disobey God that brought sin into this world. Funny thing, you say you have no use for the Bible, yet you waste your life arguing against it, to me that's not very logical.Let's talk about misinterpreting scriptures, you do it purposely to gain popularity with other atheist, that's just plain deceitful and not a good way to treat those you refer to as friends. Most Christians make an honest attempt at finding the truth in the Bible and non of us have gotten it completely right. I see the same things in the sciences, some of the past battles have cost people their jobs and credibility, yes arguing over the very same thing, seeing it differently with the same information.

GC

The following verses are relevant to the discussion:

Deuteronomy 30:19 “… have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live”

Galatians 5:13 “For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only do not use liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

1 Peter 2:16 “As free, and not using liberty as a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.”

i.e. people can choose between various goods.

Well done Chadwooters, well done. Tried to tell them that's what can happen in heaven.

GC

(July 10, 2015 at 4:20 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(July 9, 2015 at 3:01 pm)Godschild Wrote: I see you're using the ignorance of your fellow atheist to promote yourself again, have you no shame. Thought you could fool me too, I assume. Let's show everyone what you left out.
1 Corinthians 12:2-3 You know when you were pagans, you were led astray to the dumb idols, however you were led. 3) Therefore I make it know to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God say, "Jesus is accursed;" and no one can say , "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

First of all in the simplest explanation, of the above verses, Paul was saying no one can confess Jesus as Savior unless that person has the knowledge from the Holy Spirit, (Jesus told Peter the same thing when he said to Jesus, "You are the Son of God"). Being that you do not believe Jesus is the Son of God you haven't done anything but utter a few words that have no meaning to you. Since you didn't do the former as scriptures says, you most certainly did the latter as scripture says. By the words from Paul through the Holy Spirit you have been a deceiver to your fellow atheist and a liar to yourself, all known to God your judge.

GC

Rhonda Wrote:Adding the other part of that passage does not change the  meaning of the part I quoted. And my original asswerion that you are wrong abot us having a choice to  accept Jesus still stands.

You left out the rest of the verse because it would prove you wrong and it does any sensible person can set it does. 
Now I guess I'll have to explain this further, though I shouldn't have to since you went to a Bible school. The verses is saying you can't call Jesus Lord and mean it unless you have accepted Him as your savior and lord, which you have not, stated by your own words. You can't even come to know Christ without the Holy Spirit revealing to you who He is, so you might utter in meaningless words Jesus is Lord, what you can't do as the scripture says is to state with convection Jesus is Lord, because He isn't your Lord. You'r trying to play word games that a twelve year old could see through.

Mark 4: 110-13 Wrote:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.   11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:   12 That seeing they may see , and not perceive ; and hearing they may hear , and not understand ; lest at any time they should be converted , and their sins should be forgiven them.   13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Rhonda Wrote:I have the freewill to fornicate or abstain from it. I am no slave, but according to this passage there are some whom Jesus did not want to be saved. If anybody goes to hell, this passage says it's because Jesus did not want them to be forgiven. That's cool with me, If a god who doesn't exist wants to hide himself from me then well.

When did I say you were a slave, I've always said you have choice, you can't be a slave to God because you do not believe in Him. He can and may use you to advance His absolute will or even to help teach Christians, I've seen it happen here a number of times, for me it was very recent, not through you but another atheist. Jesus isn't hiding from you, He's been waiting on you! As for the scriptures you used in Mark you've not understood it correctly, Jesus said that God desires all to come into salvation and Jesus also being God could not desire any to go to hell, including you.

Rhonda Wrote:You and Drich say we never had freewill. Ohther Christians say God allowed sin  because he eanted us to have freewill.  And you all read the same Bible and accuse each other of misinterpreting it. I have no use for a book that's so open to interpretation that no one can agree about what even the slightest thing means.

That's correct we do and it's true, as I said before in this conversation if you had freewill you could override God's absolute will and that just not going to happen. God gave free choice before sin entered this world, it wasn't choice that brought sin into this world it was using choice to disobey God that brought sin into this world. Funny thing, you say you have no use for the Bible, yet you waste your life arguing against it, to me that's not very logical.Let's talk about misinterpreting scriptures, you do it purposely to gain popularity with other atheist, that's just plain deceitful and not a good way to treat those you refer to as friends. Most Christians make an honest attempt at finding the truth in the Bible and non of us have gotten it completely right. I see the same things in the sciences, some of the past battles have cost people their jobs and credibility, yes arguing over the very same thing, seeing it differently with the same information.

GC

You are so wrong. No where have I said that I never confessed Jesus as savior. For 25 wasted years I did with absolute misguided conviction believe. You have not said anything here that I have not once said.

Please don't waste time splitting hairs between freewill and choice. But since you insist on making a difference, the exact opposite of what you say is actually true. I cannot choose to fly like a bird. But I'm still free to have the will that to do it.


Until now you seemed to be in agreement with Drich. It's no wonder to me that two people reading the same Bible and claiming to be led by the same holy spirit can't agree with each other.

Decided to leave Mark 4:10-13 alone, did you?

Use me for his absolute will? Like he used Dylan Roof for his absolute will in Charleston. No thank you. Since I have a choice, I choose not to be used by that blood-thirsty reprobate in the sky.

(July 10, 2015 at 4:26 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The following verses are relevant to the discussion:

Deuteronomy 30:19 “… have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live”  

Galatians 5:13 “For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only do not use liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

1 Peter 2:16 “As free, and not using liberty as a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.”

i.e. people can choose between various goods.

Hello and thanks for your input. It seems Drich and GC have taken the discussion off on a tangent. I have thus far indulged them. But to get back to the original topic, as you can see from the title, I did not ask if we have freewill on Earth, but rather will we have it in Heaven. I've heard Christians say the reason god allows sin is so we can have freewill. By that argument, if we have freewill in Heaven then it will be possible for us to sin in Haven. Please read the opening post so that I don't have to rehash it here.

(July 10, 2015 at 2:42 pm)Drich Wrote: Drich speaks where the bible Speaks and remain silent where the bible is silent.

Moosecock! The Bible says nothing about your stupid monkeyman theory.

(July 10, 2015 at 6:47 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(July 10, 2015 at 4:26 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The following verses are relevant to the discussion:

Deuteronomy 30:19 “… have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live”  

Galatians 5:13 “For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only do not use liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

1 Peter 2:16 “As free, and not using liberty as a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.”

i.e. people can choose between various goods.

Hello and thanks for your input. It seems Drich and GC have taken the discussion off on a tangent. I have thus far indulged them. But to get back to the original topic, as you can see from the title, I did not ask if we have freewill on Earth, but rather will we have it in Heaven. I've heard Christians say the reason god allows sin is so we can have freewill. By that argument, if we have freewill in Heaven then it will be possible for us to sin in Haven. Please read the opening post so that I don't have to rehash it here.

Choices are not limited to doing good versus evil. Those in Heaven can still choose between one good or another. By accepting Christ, people start the process of purging themselves of sinful desires, or regeneration, which is completed by our glorification. The following verses apply:

Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

Ezekiel 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."