(July 12, 2015 at 10:13 am)Rhondazvous Wrote: Granted, some things do seem to have originate with Moses. The slave system in America was based on the law of Moses.

That is a lie..

"Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves" - Exodus 21:16

Please explain how American slave traders adhered to that particular law?

More dishonest? say it ain't so.

(July 12, 2015 at 9:37 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 11, 2015 at 9:31 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Oh, but Randy? Don't think I missed you agreeing with this louse back there. That's disappointing; we might disagree, but I always figured you as having some modicum of intelligence to go with that.

Huggy pointed out some of the responses that people have posted which appear to contradict the "I'm not angry at God" position that many claim. I said thanks. Big whoop.

But it occurs to me why it's so important for folks in this forum to deny being angry at God...because that unveils them as actually believing that He exists. How can you be angry at something that simply doesn't exist?

Now, don't get me wrong (like that's not gonna happen anyway), I know that there are quite a few members of the forum who are not angry atheists. You can tell by their calm, casual responses and posts that they are simply not all wound up. They're just few and far between, aren't they?

Others (and I would probably include you in this group, frankly) are REALLY aggressive and pissed off. Or am I completely wrong about you?

I think that you are confusing people's strong dislike of some things that you and Huggy have said with a dislike for your imaginary god. This might not be your fault. Each Christian seems to worship their own version of god. Of course, if we reject 'your god' we are really rejecting you and I suppose that stings.

Not feeding you anymore troll.

(July 12, 2015 at 10:18 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

(July 12, 2015 at 10:13 am)Rhondazvous Wrote: Granted, some things do seem to have originate with Moses. The slave system in America was based on the law of Moses.

That is a lie..

"Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves" - Exodus 21:16

Please explain how American slave traders adhered to that particular law?

More dishonest? say it ain't so.  

Those verses are talking about Hebrews. Hebrew slaves had certain rights because they were the 'in group'. White people in the south did not consider black people part of their group so it was easy to apply the biblical slavery laws for foreigners to African American. Sick yes, but still easy for them to do.

When I was a teenager, I was a guest at a friend's Sunday School class. At the time I was really excited to go because she was older than me and I got to sit in class with the older kids. The teacher(pastor's wife) used bible verses about the Israelites not marrying outside their faith to somehow apply to interracial marriage. It disturbed me but, at the time, I was too shy and under confident to speak up. My point is that groups in power can use those same verses to mean that they can discriminate or abuse groups with less power. They might not be able to abuse those in their group but anyone on the outside is fair game

(July 12, 2015 at 10:26 am)Nope Wrote:

(July 12, 2015 at 10:18 am)Huggy74 Wrote: That is a lie..

"Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves" - Exodus 21:16

Please explain how American slave traders adhered to that particular law?

More dishonest? say it ain't so.  

Those verses are talking about Hebrews. Hebrew slaves had certain rights because they were the 'in group'. White people in the south did not consider black people part of their group so it was easy to apply the biblical slavery laws for foreigners to African American. Sick yes, but still easy for them to do.

When I was a teenager, I was a guest at a friend's Sunday School class. At the time I was really excited to go because she was older than me and I got to sit in class with the older kids. The teacher(pastor's wife) used bible verses about the Israelites not marrying outside their faith to somehow apply to interracial marriage. It disturbed me but, at the time, I was too shy and under confident to speak up. My point is that groups in power can use those same verses to mean that they can discriminate or abuse groups with less power. They might not be able to abuse those in their group but anyone on the outside is fair game

No it was Not talking about the Hebrews only, you couldn't force ANYONE into "slavery", or else the year of Jubilee (where all who were in bondage could go free) made absolutely no sense.

(July 11, 2015 at 10:17 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: You've gotten one thing right...it IS simple. A being who created the universe out of nothing and to who you owe your whole existence, IS reason alone to accept him as your "lord and superior" (the two are synonymous).

Yeah, shockingly, I'm not convinced by "nuh uh, though!"

Quote:Add to that, the fact that he was willing to take on human form and suffer horribly, so that he could adopt you as a son and sit with him in his throne, is even more reason to accept him as your (lord and superior).

I don't particularly think so; the incredibly circuitous and unnecessary nature of that sacrifice- why does forgiveness require a blood sacrifice at all?- is pretty obvious to anybody looking at the story objectively.

Quote:Are you saying that you never considered your parents as your superior? How are they somehow more worthy of being your superior than God?

Yes, when I was a child. But when I grew up I realized my parents were simply human, with flaws just like me, not some superior form of life. My relationship with them is one derived from our interactions, not some fiat demand for respect. I feel like this is pretty analogous with how I would treat a god.

But I also have a perfect counterexample to the weird assumptions you're making here: my biological father isn't around anymore. I don't speak to him, I don't think about him, I pretty much despise him. He earned all of that- the nerves in my right hand will never recover from what he did to me- but that's pretty much the point; he earned the way I look at him via his actions. He wasn't granted some assumed lordship over me, his actions dictated his fitness to be around me, and frankly, if you had been around when I was a kid and knew what he was like, I have little doubt that you would absolutely have reached out to help me. You're not a monster, I don't think, I hope that knowing that an adult is being violent with a child would prompt you to consider that maybe that adult isn't fit to raise one. I don't think your response would be "well, he's his father, he gets to do that," would it?

That got a little heavy, but the point I'm making is that we determine our relationship with our parents ourselves, we don't come at them over this predetermined road map. It's the same with god; I consider the sort of person he is before deciding what I want to do with that information. In the case of the christian god, I simply can't get past all the omnicide and turning people to salt; you have all these excuses for why it had to be that way, but sorry, I don't buy them. Probably you think that makes me wrong, which is expected, but it's not illogical for me to hold a position I think is true, even if you don't; the only way it'd be illogical for me to hold that position is if I secretly thought you were right but held my position anyway, which simply is not the case.

Quote:Authority is not in your power to grant God. Either he has authority / power or he doesn't, regardless of his "actions, goals and beliefs".

Authority isn't some objective force you can take possession of, it's something granted by others, either grudgingly or willingly. God may have power over me, in that his supernatural abilities can make me do stuff (although you guys often appeal to free will, indicating that he won't) but that doesn't mean I have to endorse him. Maybe Yahweh's stomping around all "might makes right," like the caveman you seem to think he is, but me, as I am now, with my own mind and morals, cannot bring myself to approve of that being. It is inconsistent with my moral character to do so; I will not follow a killer.

Quote:If a guy walks up to you points a gun in your face and asks for your wallet.... he's the one with the authority because he has power over life and death. The smart move would be to give him the wallet, because if you don't he'll just shoot you in the face and take it anyway.

So whether or not you believe God is "good" or "evil" is irrelevant. As the scripture says

so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. - Philippians 2:10

Your only choice is where you bend the knee, heaven or hell... either way, you WILL acknowledge God as superior.

And you find this god, whom you literally compared to a criminal, to be moral?

You know, "my god can force you to do what he says," is not an argument against my position here. It's not my position that I'm somehow strong enough to resist god, just as there are plenty of earthly violent bullies I doubt I could resist; yes, I can be forced to do things by entities with sufficient power to do that. Still doesn't change the fact that I cannot legitimately believe that god is moral, or superior to me in any respect other than his power. Maybe he can make me do stuff, force me to cooperate, but he can't change my mind that way. And if he does change my mind, either supernaturally or through torture, then he's just brainwashing me; that's not me in there anymore.

All things being equal, the me that exists now could not accept your god, especially after what you've just said about him. I can believe that he exists, given sufficient evidence to do so, but to actually believe that he's my superior? No, can't do it. And nothing he forces me to do, without literally altering the contents of my mind, will make that belief any more likely. In fact, it'll make it less so, because I happen to lump dictators in with killers in terms of things I can't believe are moral.

Quote:The above shows why your reasoning is flawed.

No, it just shows that you don't understand the difference between belief and deed, which isn't surprising.

Quote:However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46

Children of foreigners could be kept as a permanent inheritance so the Jubilee laws didn't apply to them.

I admit, the Jubilee has always fascinated me because it seems like a great opportunity for people to start fresh from debt and slavery; however, it appears to have only applied to Hebrews. Even foreigners who had been born in Israel could be kept as permanent slaves.

(July 12, 2015 at 9:37 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Huggy pointed out some of the responses that people have posted which appear to contradict the "I'm not angry at God" position that many claim. I said thanks. Big whoop.

The problem is that they don't contradict it, because they don't speak of anger at all. "Nope," does not indicate anger. "I have an ethical objection" does not denote rage. That's stuff you're unjustifiably reading into the text.

Quote:But it occurs to me why it's so important for folks in this forum to deny being angry at God...because that unveils them as actually believing that He exists. How can you be angry at something that simply doesn't exist?

Can I suggest another possibility? We don't like being misrepresented.

Here's another: robbing us of our voices is offensive.

Can you at least consider that our responses might just be in reaction to you and the things you're saying, rather than indicative of some deeper motivation? Drop the conspiracy theory mindset and look at the words we're actually saying, rather than the motivation you'd prefer to impose upon them?

Quote:Now, don't get me wrong (like that's not gonna happen anyway), I know that there are quite a few members of the forum who are not angry atheists. You can tell by their calm, casual responses and posts that they are simply not all wound up. They're just few and far between, aren't they?

Others (and I would probably include you in this group, frankly) are REALLY aggressive and pissed off. Or am I completely wrong about you?

Here's the thing that you seem to keep missing: anger does not necessarily have to be directed at your god. Our anger can, in fact, be directed at another person. Why are you refusing to even consider that we might just be angry at the person we're talking to? What's up with that?

(July 12, 2015 at 3:28 am)Judi Lynn Wrote: That is because they have closed minds. Perhaps it's their refusal to understand logic and reason, instead accepting blind faith and stories from a book of fairy tales about some imaginary sky daddy who will send you to hell if you don't believe.

It's hard for them to accept what we say because all our words are filtered through thoughts of "What will people think of me if I acknowledge that what these atheist say makes sense?" "What will happen to my ministry?" "I'll never get my wife to accept this. She's in Christian ministry for the money and doesn't care if it's true or not so I'd better reject what the atheists say to save my marriage." "I've put too much mouth into Christianity. I can't back out now."

How can they hear us, much less think about what we're saying with all this cacophony going on in the background?

(July 11, 2015 at 3:29 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 11, 2015 at 3:14 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: Nobody here is mad at god.  All your arguments presuppose god's existence and you assume that we are in rebellion against a god that we supposedly know does  exists.

We are not mad at god. WE DON'T BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD.  I can't say it with enough emphasis. None of us is mad at a god when there is no evidence that such a being exist or if he does, as some do believe, has not shown the slightest interest in gracing our planet in any empirical way, shape, form or fashion.

So stop chastising us as if we were naughty children who won't accept parental authority. You have proven in a zillion posts that your standard for accepting something as truth is dismally low and whenever challenged to examine your claims, you instead resort to obfuscation and outright disingenuousness. So please...you make me tired.

It might be more accurate to say, "Not everyone here is mad at God."

Some are. Big time.

No, dude. I used to be mad at god, back when I thought he existed, and rightly so; he's a complete asshole. No matter how much I hated him, though, it didn't change my belief. That took evidence and critical thinking.


Now I'm not mad at god...I'm mad at theists for tricking me into believing in him for so long and for bringing bullshit and dirty tricks into discussions that should be based on facts and evidence.