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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 9:51 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 8:34 pm)Javaman Wrote: (August 5, 2015 at 8:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: 1. Not sure what you mean. I was answering your question of "what does the Church teach", and answered it to the point. Not sure where the "just because" came from.
2. No one knows who went to hell, or who is going to hell. That doesn't mean we can't believe certain things are immoral. Judge the sin, not the sinner and all that.
3. I didn't copy and paste the paragraph that came right before that. They were saying it's less reprehensible when doing IVF involving only the married couple versus just using a stranger's egg/sperm and using a surrogate. It wasn't comparing it to rape, because rape is on a whole other level.
I (and others) have specifically asked why it's deemed immoral. Your response has been to claim "because the Church teaches it".
It appears you'd rather be evasive than provide straightforward answers to the various questions I've posed. So be it.
Two days ago I started a thread saying that I was not going to get into deep discussions about my faith anymore, as doing so has proven pointless anyway, and has brought out a lot of nastiness and rudeness.
I already gave my "short answer" to why we think IVF is not moral. If you are genuinely curious to know about it more in depth, use google lol. If I got the sense that you were asking out of genuine interest, and not just for an opportunity to argue, I would engage you. But I don't get that sense, I'm sorry. 
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 10:00 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 8:42 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: (August 5, 2015 at 8:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: There is nothing wrong with being born via C-section. Could you clarify the difference between medical intervention in either case?
A certain level of medical intervention for fertility so you can reproduce is perfectly moral. It's when you take it to the level of taking complete control of it by physically doing it yourself on a petri dish that we don't think is moral. Likewise, getting a baby out of the womb is not the same as actually creating human life.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 10:05 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 8:14 pm)Allnewoutlook Wrote: I suppose it's hard to say this at only fourteen when so much more can happen in life to change my mind but I voted A. As of right now I want four kids, and I'd like to adopt them, both for the whole overpopulation thing and because I want three girls and a son. The girls because there aren't enough beautiful, intelligent, well minded girls in the world. I want a son so I can have guy to buddy around with.
Good for you. Adopting children who need a good home, and providing a good home for them, is a noble thing to do.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 10:05 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 8:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 5, 2015 at 7:04 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: I really hate that quote.
I was born via C-section, Is that not placing the power of doctors and the domination of technology over my origin and destiny?
When I was born, I was literally shaped like a pretzel. My hands were touching my own forearms, and my legs were entwined with themselves. Are not the 43 or so surgeries I've had to give me what function and mobility I have, in addition to all of the adaptive technology I need to use to have some semblance of a life, relying on the power of doctors and domination of technology over my origin and destiny?
IMO, there's a danger in fetishizing the 'normal' human body, especially when it's done at the expense of technology that helps people who weren't so lucky, whether they're infertile or have a disability. The reasoning you gave may be limited to IVF, but that in itself is a form of cherry picking. If the church has no problem with my existence, it really shouldn't have an issue with IVF. That it does only highlights how inconsistent they are when it comes to trying to regulate what people do with their own bodies.
I sincerely hope you think about this beyond "Well, the church and/or bible tells me this, so it must be so."
There is nothing wrong with being born via C-section.
It is unnatural.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 10:10 pm
I gag whenever Christians come through with this "it's unnatural" argument.
Until you're naked living out in the forest with nothing but the skin that is on your back, don't talk to me about "natural". Lots of things we do "are unnatural", living in a house, driving a car, cutting our hair, making/owning/using guns. These people don't complain "it's unnatural" to any of those things though, oh no.
"Adulthood is like looking both ways before you cross the road, and then getting hit by an airplane" - sarcasm_only
"Ironically like the nativist far-Right, which despises multiculturalism, but benefits from its ideas of difference to scapegoat the other and to promote its own white identity politics; these postmodernists, leftists, feminists and liberals also use multiculturalism, to side with the oppressor, by demanding respect and tolerance for oppression characterised as 'difference', no matter how intolerable." - Maryam Namazie
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 10:38 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 10:10 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: I gag whenever Christians come through with this "it's unnatural" argument.
Until you're naked living out in the forest with nothing but the skin that is on your back, don't talk to me about "natural". Lots of things we do "are unnatural", living in a house, driving a car, cutting our hair, making/owning/using guns. These people don't complain "it's unnatural" to any of those things though, oh no.
Yes. My point in pointing out that the one thing was "unnatural" but acceptable means that being "unnatural" cannot be a legitimate reason for saying that something is bad.
It is especially annoying, though, when the "unnatural" argument is used on something that is natural, like homosexuality. Many animals engage in homosexual behavior, so it is obviously natural. Though, as you say, being unnatural does not equate with being bad anyway.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 11:25 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 10:05 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: (August 5, 2015 at 8:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: There is nothing wrong with being born via C-section.
It is unnatural.
So are clothes?? Lol. So is the bed I'm laying on, and the processed crap in the brownie I had for dessert.
Unnatural =/= immoral across the board.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 11:31 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 11:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 5, 2015 at 10:05 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: It is unnatural.
So are clothes?? Lol. So is the bed I'm laying on, and the processed crap in the brownie I had for dessert.
Unnatural =/= immoral across the board.
While I agree with you 100%, I must say I'm disappointed you didn't share the brownies with the rest of us 
Now I'm hungry....
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 11:37 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 11:31 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: (August 5, 2015 at 11:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: So are clothes?? Lol. So is the bed I'm laying on, and the processed crap in the brownie I had for dessert.
Unnatural =/= immoral across the board.
While I agree with you 100%, I must say I'm disappointed you didn't share the brownies with the rest of us
Now I'm hungry....
They were Nutella stuffed brownies I got the recipe for on Pinterest. Freaking amazing. I'll be sure to send you some via PM next time.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 11:40 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 11:37 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 5, 2015 at 11:31 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: While I agree with you 100%, I must say I'm disappointed you didn't share the brownies with the rest of us
Now I'm hungry....
They were Nutella stuffed brownies I got the recipe for on Pinterest. Freaking amazing. I'll be sure to send you some via PM next time.
Ugh! You are killing me! Since I still have work to do tonight I may have to run out and get some junk food. Everyone's asleep anyway. 
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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