Miracle

[Fidel_Castronaut]

There are no miracles within the Quran, just post hoc reasoning and confirmation biases, as amply evidenced by Harris.

Kudos to you, sir.

[Pizza]

All arguments from miracles in support for any religion are post hoc. It's so obvious that it's not even funny to me anymore.

[downbeatplumb]

If a religion relies on impossible things happening then it is a false religion.

[Harris]

Unlike you, I don't doubt that the early Muslims knew a lot about the world-- especially about geology or oceanology.

Yes, early Muslims were very knowledgeable until savage cruel Crusaders and Mongols had burned all their libraries and killed most of those scholars. The dispirited Muslims were then never be able to retain their scholarly eminence after facing unprecedented aggression against their lives and against humongous wealth of knowledge that they had collected in centuries. Those were unbearable calamities.

However, all those early scholars were born centuries later after the complete revelation of Quran. In the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad, nearly all Muslims were from the labour and slave classes and more or less all of them were illiterate. The only literary activity, in the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad, was the memorisation and making of written records of Quranic verses to preserve them from getting lost. No companion of Prophet Muhammad had time for other scholarly activity as Muslims were constantly resisting oppression and tyranny of Pagans who were hostile and struggling hard to wipe Islam from the Arab lands.

None in the following lists played any role in the assembling of Quran.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mu...ilosophers

As for this 23 mentions = Chromosomes bullshit, you're just making stuff up.
Look, to demonstrate that something is a miracle, you have to do two things

1) Show they really meant to say what you insist they were saying (23 mentions of male and female intends to hint at chromosomes)

What you've done is taken a bunch of numbers, and read into those numbers meanings that the writers of the Quran are not known to have had. This stuff might be an exciting confirmation of your cultural bias, but to anyone else, it just shows how weak religious claims to science really are.

Those numbers are not scientific claims. Although there is no specific mention in Quran about the number of chromosomes or length of lunar month, etc. but the word-repetitions and their contextual meanings rightly fit with the today’s scientific data and those occurrences cannot be taken as coincidences because there are too many of them.

• The word "LAND" appears 13 times in the Qur'an and the word "SEA" 32 times.

32+13 = 45

13/45 = 0.2888888888888889
32/45 = 0.7111111111111111

Multiplying both results by 100, we have

28.88888888888889%
71.11111111111111%

Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today.

• “DAY” 365 times,
(Number of days in one year)

• “MONTHS” 30 times,
(Approximate number of days in a month)

• “MONTH” 12 times,
(Number of months in a year)

• “MOON” 27 times:
Lunar month is approximately 27 days long

• “MAN” and “WOMAN” 23 times:
The total number of human chromosomes is 46 in 23 pairs

23 from the father (MAN)
23 rom the mother (WOMAN)

Let me introduce one example from the Abjad Calculations.

The numeric value of the phrase “The IRON” is 57
The numeric value of the word “IRON” is 26

Fifty-seventh chapter in Quran is “The IRON”

There are 114 chapters in Quran and 57th chapter is right in the middle.

114/2 = 57

Let me show you what those numbers means.

a. IRON has 5 isotopes:

55, 56, 57, 58, 59.

The middle isotope (as you can see) is 57, which is the atomic weight of Iron.

b. In the Periodic Table of Elements, the 26th element is “IRON”! Means the atomic number of Iron is 26.

Do you think anyone in seventh century had the knowledge of Atomic Weight, Atomic Number, and Isotopes of Iron?

Furthermore, there is a strange pattern of numbers resides in this chapter.

c. There are 29 verses in chapter number 57. If we multiply number of verses with the chapter number we have:

29 x 57 = 1653. What does this number 1653 mean? If we add all the chapters’ numbers from chapter 1 to 57, we have:

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + … + 57 = 1653

As though there is more hidden data about Iron in this Chapter.

Quran is full of number patterns and sequences where the ocean of data is hidden. Both Muslims and non-Muslims who have knowledge of Abjad are fascinated by the structure, arrangement, and mathematical balance between the verses and specific words in Quran because those sequences and mathematical patterns do not disturb the consistency and the meaning of the text.

Some pairs of words, which are similar in their secondary meanings and occurred in Quran in same number of times.

• "PLANT" and "TREE" 26 times each
• "WINE" and "INTOXICATION" 6 times each,
• "SUN" and "LIGHT" 33 times each,
• "SUMMER-HOT" and "WINTER-COLD" 5 times each,
• "WORLD" and "HEREAFTER" 115 times each,
• "PARADISE" and "HELL" 77 times each,
• "SEVEN HEAVENS" 7 times and "THE CREATION OF THE HEAVENS" 7 times each,
• "TONGUE" and "SERMON" 25 times each,
• "BENEFIT" and "CORRUPT" 50 times each,
• "SAY," and "THEY SAID" 332 times each,
• "THE RIGHTEOUS" and "THE WICKED" 6 times each,
• "TREACHERY" and "FOUL" 16 times each
• "TROUBLE" and "PEACE" 13 times each,
• "ACTION" and "REWARD” 107 times each,
• "PAYMENT" and "FORGIVENESS" 117 times,
• "RIGHT GUIDANCE" and "MERCY" 79 times each,
• “MAN” and “WOMAN” 23 times each,

• "HUMAN BEING" occurred 65 times in Quran

The sum of the number of references to the stages of man's creation in Quran is the same: i.e. 65

 Soil 17
 Drop of Sperm 12
 Embryo 6
 A half formed lump of flesh 3
 Bone 15
 Flesh 12

17 + 12 + 6 + 3 + 15 + 12 = 65

• The word "SALAWAT" occurred five times in the Quran and Allah has commanded man to perform the PRAYERS five times a day.

“Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 82-

2) Show that they couldn't have known the things you insist they couldn't have known.

The origin of word Halocline is:

Word “Halo” appeared in mid-16th century (denoting a circle of light round the sun etc.): from medieval Latin, from Latin halos, from Greek halōs ‘disc of the sun or moon’

Word “Cline” appeared in 1930s: from Greek klinein ‘to slope’

The words Halo + cline = Halocline which appeared in 1955 - 1960
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/halocline

No historical record confirms that ancient people were aware about halocline which is for sure a very recent scientific discovery.

Likewise, before Edwin Hubble discovered an approximate relationship between the redshifts of nebulae and the distances to them with the formulation of his eponymous Hubble's law, people did not know about the expanding universe and consequently did not know about Big Bang.

Halocline, Big Bang, Expanding Universe, etc. are not trivial concepts. It does not make any sense that if ancient people had knowledge about these imperative concepts then they had no particular interest or sympathy to them.

Ok so you're using logic to come to the conclusion that people did know that striking the groin with wood would cause pain.

But yet you fail to see that people probably did know that burning may cause numbness to damaged skin using the exact same logic.

You gave me pictures of people being hit in the groin, I can give you more pictures and accounts of people using fire for cooking, people being tortured by fire, fire used in war, people using fire for light and for warmth and for boiling water in ancient times.

You say even though you can't find a written account saying wood in the groin causes pain it's logical.

I'm telling you that it is logical that people in ancient times knew that skin could go numb after burning because they would have experienced it and known the symptoms of it, that is much more logical than believing that a vague mention of burning and replacing skin is miraculous.

I know I've already told you this and you failed to understand it before because you then replied saying something along the lines of "But they didn't understand the mechanism of the numbness."

The quran gives no mechanism for the numbness, the quran actually doesn't mention numbness it just simply says the fire will hurt, the skin will be replaced and the person will taste punishment, but if you want to assume that the quran is talking about nerve damage from fire that's also not miraculous.

Numbness, sensation, pain, these things aren't explained in the quran beyond what ancient people knew, they experience fire from cooking, torture methods, execution, lighting, the boiling of water, they knew it caused pain.

You actually would have a hard time explaining why ancient people would not know the symptoms of 3rd degree burns. Why would an ancient person not know about it?

Do you at least agree that ancient people did experience 3rd degree burns? And do you not logically think that if they did experience it they would have experienced numbness on the burned skin caused by nerve damage?

I'm not asking did they know about nerve damage, I'm asking do you think ancient people experienced nerve damage because of fire ever?

I had given you detailed responses on every point you have repeated above.

Simply answer me:

What happened with the people before 14th century, why were they silent about numbness and what happened after 14th century that they all of a sudden opened rigorous discussions over numbness in the burned skin?

Paulpablo wrote:
Do you at least agree that ancient people did experience 3rd degree burns?

Bennyboy wrote:
You don't get it at all. The ancient people didn't know that burns cause pain (or numbness) before getting burns. They COULDN'T have known those things without getting burns. Therefore burns were given by Allah to demonstrate the miraculous nature of the Quran. . . or of fire, or skin or something.

“The point here is not whether people were aware or not about burning sensation but it is about their perception of burning sensation. They perceived heart as pain receptor, which Quran has corrected by attracting their attentions toward the skin.”

Just like someone couldn't know that salt and fresh water stay separate for a long time, unless they actually saw (or knew someone who knew someone who saw) a river flowing into the ocean. Therefore, rivers, oceans, and salt and fresh water are all miracles. Oh yeah, and the Quran. That'd definitely a miracle.

I have no historical clues that people who were living in the middle of Arabian Desert in seventh century knew about Estuary and Delta. If you are hiding some historical evidences in your sleeves then here and now is the best opportunity to use them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary

There are no miracles within the Quran, just post hoc reasoning and confirmation biases, as amply evidenced by Harris.

Kudos to you, sir.

Up to this point, I have not seen any explanation with suitable evidences and references that can give right understanding on how those scientific facts became part of Quran in seventh century if Quran is not the Word of God.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

^^

There aren't any miracles in the Quran, just your post hoc reasoning, so no explanation is needed. How many times do you want me to copy and paste that Harry?

There is no reference to an expanding universe in the Quran, no reference to dark matter, no reference to neurology, no reference to anti-biotics. What there is are spurious all encompassing references to bollocks like 'skin' or whatever, where you, living in the 21st century (though sometimes I forget reading your posts) have automatically inferred using your knowledge that someone in the 7th century must also have known because 'Mohammed innit?'

Not very convincing. And when combined with numerology? 'Man and woman are mentioned 23 times = REVELATION ABOUT CHROMOSOMES'. Wow, amazing. Why did Jésus, sorry, Allah or whatever stop there? Why didn't he reveal how to treat the myriad of chromosome based illnesses, like, say, Down's syndrome or something? Or is that not how this works?

Lol. There's a reason nobody takes you guys seriously in the real world, you know.

[Harris]

There aren't any miracles in the Quran, just your post hoc reasoning, so no explanation is needed. How many times do you want me to copy and paste that Harry?

There is no reference to an expanding universe in the Quran, no reference to dark matter, no reference to neurology, no reference to anti-biotics. What there is are spurious all encompassing references to bollocks like 'skin' or whatever, where you, living in the 21st century (though sometimes I forget reading your posts) have automatically inferred using your knowledge that someone in the 7th century must also have known because 'Mohammed innit?'

Not very convincing. And when combined with numerology? 'Man and woman are mentioned 23 times = REVELATION ABOUT CHROMOSOMES'. Wow, amazing. Why did Jésus, sorry, Allah or whatever stop there? Why didn't he reveal how to treat the myriad of chromosome based illnesses, like, say, Down's syndrome or something? Or is that not how this works?

Lol. There's a reason nobody takes you guys seriously in the real world, you know.

Let me give you some REFRESHMENTS.

A. Prove following verses misrepresents the real world scientific facts.


1. Big Bang

“Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? … ”
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 30-

2. Metric expansion of space

“With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan

“With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.”
Translation by Yusuf Ali:

Adz-Dzaariya (51)
-Verse 47-

3. Orbits

“And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan

“It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.”
Translation by Yusuf Ali
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 33-

4. The Solar apex

“And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.”
Yaa Siin (36)
-Verse 38-

5. Iron carried by meteorites to earth

“…WE SENT DOWN IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind…” (Quran 57:25)

6. The deep ocean currents

“Or (the state of a disbeliever) is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with a great wave topped by a great wave, topped by dark clouds, darkness, one above another, if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allah has not appointed light, for him there is no light.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan:

“Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!”
Translation by Yusuf Ali:

An Nuur (24)
-Verse 40-

7. Halocline

“It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.”
Al Furqaan (25)
-Verse 53-

8. Human embryo and its stages of development

“O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you;”
Al Hajj (22)
-Verse 5-

“Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay);
Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!”

Al Mu'minuun (23)
-Verses 12, 13, 14-

9. Skin a Pain Receptor

“Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 56-


B. Prove that Prophet Muhammad and his companions have made all those verses.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

None of those things relate at all the topics you say they do. There's no mention of a singularity for the big bang in the Quran ergo = post hoc reasoning. You wouldn't infer that verse specifically related to the Big Bang unless you knew about it. I mean the iron thing is great. Does the Quran discuss the atomic composition of iron, and how iron is actually formed?

*sigh* I suspect without reading this thread that everyone else has rebutted this for the same reason. That should tell you somethig, but i suspect the indoctrination is too strong and you are forever lost. Oh well, not my life, so I don't really care. Please continue with your confirmation bias and faulty logic ^_^

[paulpablo]

What happened with the people before 14th century, why were they silent about numbness and what happened after 14th century that they all of a sudden opened rigorous discussions over numbness in the burned skin?

Where are the rigorous discussions on numbness in burned skin after the 14th century? Can you show me rigorous discussions in the 15th century about burned skin with numbness?
I don't know that they were silent before the 14th century.  I don't know that there have been rigorous discussions over numbness in burned skin since the 14th century.

You're asking for ancient medical records, not only that but ancient medical records on an obscure topic.

You're basic demands are,

Either find ancient writings about the obscure topic of numbness in burned skin, or the quran is a miracle.

If the quran mentioned some sort of new scientific discovery or technology you would have a point.

A car is a non ancient form of technology, if they found that in the quran it would be odd, surprising, worth thinking about.

Numbness in skin due to nerve damage isn't new technology, it's a sensation or lack of sensation.  A symptom of 3rd degree burns.

Now I take it you admit people did suffer 3rd degree burns in ancient times, so you tell me is it likely they experienced numbness in their skin if they're was numbness?
If people in ancient times did suffer 3rd degree burns please tell me why would they not experience the symptoms of 3rd degree burns?

[paulpablo]

 5. Iron carried by meteorites to earth

“…WE SENT DOWN IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind…” (Quran 57:25)

We've already been through this once before, the term "Send down" is used to describe many things and people in the quran provided by god.  For example books, food, prophets.  Just because one of these things happens to have at one point been in a meteorite doesn't make it a miracle.
The verse wouldn't be wrong if iron wasn't sent down in a meteorite, you would just interpret the verse differently so that sent down meant provided for.  It's only in this instance you're trying to interpret sent down as meaning being sent down in a meteorite.

[bennyboy]

Let me give you some REFRESHMENTS.

A. Prove following verses misrepresents the real world scientific facts.


1. Big Bang

“Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? … ”
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 30-

Everything you say needs your own metacommentary-- haven't you noticed? I'm pretty sure you added (as one unit of creation) to make it sound more like the Big Bang.

2. Metric expansion of space

“With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan

“With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.”
Translation by Yusuf Ali:

Adz-Dzaariya (51)
-Verse 47-

So the muslims thought the universe was big. So does my beagle. Is he a miracle-worker too?

3. Orbits

“And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan

Your miracle book forgot to mention that the Earth is also in orbit around the sun.

4. The Solar apex

“And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.”
Yaa Siin (36)
-Verse 38-

wth does this even mean? Is the sun a man?

5. Iron carried by meteorites to earth
“…WE SENT DOWN IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind…” (Quran 57:25)

So the muslims had the ability to see thing fall, to pick things up, and to identify things as iron? Ooooh. . . miraculous.

6. The deep ocean currents

“Or (the state of a disbeliever) is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with a great wave topped by a great wave, topped by dark clouds, darkness, one above another, if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allah has not appointed light, for him there is no light.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan:

“Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!”
Translation by Yusuf Ali:

An Nuur (24)
-Verse 40-

Because nobody knew oceans were deep? You sure?

7. Halocline

“It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.”
Al Furqaan (25)
-Verse 53-

Observable from almost any cliff near a river joining the ocean. I've seen it myself, and it is obvious what is happening. You only think it's a miracle because YOU didn't know about it. Sailors and anyone living by the ocean would know.

8. Human embryo and its stages of development

“O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you;”
Al Hajj (22)
-Verse 5-

Proving that muslims were familiar with basic surgery and biology. Impressive considering their day, but not very miraculous.

9. Skin a Pain Receptor

“Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 56-

This says more about the muslim love for torture than about their scientific prowess. Normal people don't go around thinking about the best way to cause people pain, and I would say that a loving God probably wouldn't either. A bunch of twisted, angry desert people, on the other hand. . .