The Muslim Jesus was a Failed Prophet

[Minimalist]

God is capable of getting it right the first time, but maybe He doesn't want to get it right the first time.

If He made everything right the first time, then everything would be perfect and the universe would be like a Heaven. And there wouldn't a lot of changes in the universe. And nobody would feel the need to pray to God or call Him if everything was perfect. So, maybe that's the reason why God allows imperfections to happen from time to time. And sometimes He even fixes them, if He wants to.

You truly have swallowed the Kool-Aid, man.

So god is inept because he wants to be. Okay, if that's your story.

[Zen Badger]

Lots of maybes in your posts Rayann.

Maybe you're wrong, ever think of that?

Especially given the complete lack of evidence for your god.

[theVOID]

Are you really sure you want to go down the road of portraying the 'creator of the universe' as a tinkering mechanic?

It's possible because sometimes the Creator likes to do things gradually and sometimes He likes to do them more quickly. His plans are too subtle for us to comprehend.

And what the fuck are you doing with opinions and explanations about something that you can't comprehend?

Nonsensical much?

God is capable of getting it right the first time, but maybe He doesn't want to get it right the first time.

If He made everything right the first time, then everything would be perfect and the universe would be like a Heaven. And there wouldn't a lot of changes in the universe. And nobody would feel the need to pray to God or call Him if everything was perfect. So, maybe that's the reason why God allows imperfections to happen from time to time. And sometimes He even fixes them, if He wants to.

So people in perfect heaven don't pray or worship?

How about this explanation: HE DOESN'T EXIST.

Now you can stop doing mental gymnastics and get on with something worthwhile. You can thank me later.

[Skipper]

Are you really sure you want to go down the road of portraying the 'creator of the universe' as a tinkering mechanic?

It's possible because sometimes the Creator likes to do things gradually and sometimes He likes to do them more quickly. His plans are too subtle for us to comprehend.

All these claims of your god moving in "Mysterious ways" and in ways" to subtle for us to comprehend" are laughable! You claim all this and still say you know exactly how he wants us to act and live our lives down to some of the smallest details.... can you not see the contradiction here?

[theVOID]

Are you really sure you want to go down the road of portraying the 'creator of the universe' as a tinkering mechanic?

It's possible because sometimes the Creator likes to do things gradually and sometimes He likes to do them more quickly. His plans are too subtle for us to comprehend.

All these claims of your god moving in "Mysterious ways" and in ways" to subtle for us to comprehend" are laughable! You claim all this and still say you know exactly how he wants us to act and live our lives down to some of the smallest details.... can you not see the contradiction here?

He can, but contradictions are too subtle for him to comprehend.

[DeistPaladin]

This Johnny-come-lately argument for Islam doesn't mean that there is a problem with Islam itself. I think it's a derisive term with no significant value.

While my use of the term is derisive, I'm using this mocking term to make a point. From the perspective of the skeptic, it certainly seems that way. Muhammad comes along several centuries after Jesus to announce that God spoke to him and everyone's got it all wrong but he's here to set us straight.

Part of the reason the Christians at Nicaea needed the OT and had to come up with the Trinity nonsense is because the alternative was to embrace a "new" religion (or Johnny-come-lately). The Romans would never accept that because if a religion is "new", one wonders why no one had heard about it before? Where's God been all this time? Islam has this problem (as does Mormonism).

Islam compounds this problem by claiming that the established religions had gotten it all wrong. Where was God this whole time?

So having seen the Jews and Christians get everything wrong, what is God's solution? Another burning bush? No. Jesus flying down to land in Rome to set the Pope straight? No. Talk to some guy several centuries later who lives in another country who has no influence in either Rome or Constantinople and provide not a shred of evidence that this guy is a prophet? According to Islam's story...

Eventually, He wanted to correct all the past religions by sending another prophet who would be able to deliver His last and final message to all mankind, without any corruption this time.

A Pope would have been a better choice as a person to talk to? Or why just one man? Why not a booming voice from the sky like at Jesus' baptism or in Judges 1:1? Or hey, here's a wild idea, why not speak to more than just the Middle-East or Europe? How about China or India or the Americas?

And why isn't that possible? Is it because it implies that God is not omnipotent?

Which is more likely?
1. The above scenario really is true, that Allah watched his chosen people get it all wrong and did nothing. Then he watched the Christians get it all wrong and did nothing. Then he decides to speak to this one guy while he's alone in a cave and doesn't even give him any magical powers or anything to prove his story... or...
2. That Muhammad just said God spoke to him?

On a second scenario, I've also heard the Imams saying that all the previous prophets were also teaching Islam, starting from Abraham to Muhammad (peace be upon them), but it's just that the previous religions were a corruption of God's true religion (which is Islam). So, maybe Islam is the first and last religion, not just the last religion as many people think it is.

That's not just a second scenario. Every anti-establishment religion needs to make that claim. The Protestants do the same thing when arguing against Catholicism's claim of antiquity. The old religion can always appeal to tradition. The new religion must create a fantasy past by which they can claim that they're not rebelling but simply returning to what once was.

The problem with this fantasy is it's nothing but a dreamscape. There were a wild variety of Christianities prior to Nicaea, but none of them were compatible with Islam. If Jesus did preach an Islamic message, no one ever saw fit to record it nor were these hypothetical proto-Muslims ever numerous enough to get attention.

Also, Muslims don't need to say that Jesus was a "great" prophet, because all prophets are great anyways.

If Islam is true, Jesus was an epic failure as a prophet. And this failure was in spite of his magical powers to heal and cause clay birds to come to life. He flies off into the sky and apparently did such a poor job of communicating that his devoted followers started worshiping him as a god not more than a few years later.

As for Jesus being a failed prophet, it doesn't matter because he is still a prophet like all the other prophets.

It boggles my mind that Jesus' apparent failure despite all that he was given doesn't bother you.

Here's the scenario: Paul comes along a few years later and tells the followers of Jesus "Hey guys, we're supposed to worship him as a god." and his followers just say "OK"?

On the day of resurrection, Jesus will get angry at the Christians and he will say to them (something like), "What?! When did I say that I am the son of God? When did I tell you to worship me? I never said that. Instead, my followers invented a lie against me! You should've listened to my successor, Muhammad (pbuh), the last messenger of God." Then the Christians will be ashamed of themselves.

And you touch on another "Johnny-come-lately" problem.

Every religion uses special pleading (my god is true and yours is not) but Islam takes it to a new level. Muhammad not only claims to understand God better than the Christians. He says he knows Jesus and what Jesus said better than the Christians who actually knew him! And the only worldly place he could have heard about Jesus was from the Christians that Muhammad says got it wrong!

Think about that for a minute. If I'm going to pick a religion: Christianity or Islam, which one should I believe is true? Would the Church established allegedly by Jesus be more likely to know what Jesus said or would some guy who came along several centuries later in a completely different country know better?

And if God told Muhammad the truth about Jesus than we're back to the question of why God doesn't do the same with the Christians? It would have saved a lot of bloodshed.

---

If He made everything right the first time, then everything would be perfect and the universe would be like a Heaven. And there wouldn't a lot of changes in the universe. And nobody would feel the need to pray to God or call Him if everything was perfect. So, maybe that's the reason why God allows imperfections to happen from time to time. And sometimes He even fixes them, if He wants to.

So God made an imperfect universe so people would worship him?

For a perfect god, he sure is insecure that he goes to such lengths to get validation from mortals.

So, is he a really big, strong, powerful being plagued by feelings of insecurity and inadequacy? Kind of touching in a strange way.

Maybe Allah needs a hug?

[Rayaan]

Especially given the complete lack of evidence for your god.

The best evidence for God is in the Quran and in the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh). Those are good enough for me and I don't have a need to observe God myself to believe in Him. Also, even the level of organization in the natural world and the variety of animals that exist, which I've made a thread on (Animals are Fascinating), are a philosophical sign for the existence of a Designer. There is an intelligent force acting behind the laws of nature and evolution.

And what the fuck are you doing with opinions and explanations about something that you can't comprehend?

I don't understand God's plan completely, of course not, and that's why I was only giving some possible explanations, but no certainty. I thought it would make a little bit sense at least.

All these claims of your god moving in "Mysterious ways" and in ways" to subtle for us to comprehend" are laughable! You claim all this and still say you know exactly how he wants us to act and live our lives down to some of the smallest details.... can you not see the contradiction here?

The only things that I claim to know about God are those which have been revealed by Himself in the Quran. Other aspects of God which are not in the Quran, I'm not too sure of those.

While my use of the term is derisive, I'm using this mocking term to make a point. From the perspective of the skeptic, it certainly seems that way. Muhammad comes along several centuries after Jesus to announce that God spoke to him and everyone's got it all wrong but he's here to set us straight.

Just because Muhammad came several centuries after Jesus, does this necessarily mean that Islam is a worse religion that Christianity? Similarly, if a scientist comes up with a new theory of something and says that all the previous theories are wrong, does this mean that the new theory is defective? No, not always, because you have to examine the theory itself. In the same way, you have to look at the history of Islam itself.

Also, the Quran is the greatest proof of God's communication with Muhammad (pbuh). That's why I made a whole thread about it.

And what's the reason that he would lie by saying that God spoke to him? Can you present any rational arguments that he lied about this? Do you think that he lied about the Quran also?

A Pope would have been a better choice as a person to talk to? Or why just one man? Why not a booming voice from the sky like at Jesus' baptism or in Judges 1:1? Or hey, here's a wild idea, why not speak to more than just the Middle-East or Europe? How about China or India or the Americas?

The prophets are the channels through which God has spoken to us.

If God speaks to everyone, in all parts of the world, then that's like spoon-feeding us. Also, His words could be more easily distorted and corrupted by others if He spoke to any random person in the world. That's why God likes to transmit information by selecting certain people so that His words can be recorded more accurately and without any corruption.

Think about that for a minute. If I'm going to pick a religion: Christianity or Islam, which one should I believe is true? Would the Church established allegedly by Jesus be more likely to know what Jesus said or would some guy who came along several centuries later in a completely different country know better?

Muhammad didn't know any of this except by God's revelation. He didn't make up these things from the top of his head. If you think so, then you have to prove that he lied.

Each of the prophets were given revelations by God and the last revelation is the most authentic, which is the Quran. So, it is more rational to believe in the Quran than to believe in the Bible (even though we know that the Quran came after the Bible). I discussed more on the Quran in this thread.

[Minimalist]

The best evidence for God is in the Quran and in the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh).

And the circle begins again.





Perhaps you should ask yourself why the ONLY evidence for your ( or any ) god is in one book?

[DeistPaladin]

Similarly, if a scientist comes up with a new theory of something and says that all the previous theories are wrong, does this mean that the new theory is defective? No, not always, because you have to examine the theory itself. In the same way, you have to look at the history of Islam itself.

By examining the evidence? That's what scientists do. So what evidence do you have that proves...?

the Quran

And what's the reason that he would lie by saying that God spoke to him?

I suspect it's the same reason you think all other prophets of other religions lie. Do you think Joseph Smith (Mormonism) told the truth? Do you think that L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology) told the truth? If you don't, what is your "proof" that they lied?

It's not up to you or me to prove Joseph Smith or Hubbard lied about their "revelations". It's up to them to prove their extraordinary claim. They have not done this anymore than Muhammad has.

If God speaks to everyone, in all parts of the world, then that's like spoon-feeding us.

Muhammad didn't know any of this except by God's revelation.

So if God told him the truth about Jesus, why didn't God tell the pope?

[Ashendant]

Just because Muhammad came several centuries after Jesus, does this necessarily mean that Islam is a worse religion that Christianity? Similarly, if a scientist comes up with a new theory of something and says that all the previous theories are wrong, does this mean that the new theory is defective? No, not always, because you have to examine the theory itself. In the same way, you have to look at the history of Islam itself.

How do you know Muhammad wasn't insane, he stayed long periods of time alone in a cave, we humans don't take loneliness well, how do you know he didn't lie to get power, after all he did get power and fame.

How do you know he's infallible, the Qu'ran is neither perfect and filled with as many inconsistencies as the bible