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December 16, 2015 at 9:42 am (This post was last modified: December 16, 2015 at 9:46 am by The Grand Nudger.)
I'm not at all concerned that someone thinks I don't understand christianity, or at least whatever version of it that they're peddling at any given moment. Every sect of christianity thinks that the other sects don't understand christianity. It's their most profoundly ironic common attribute. Apparently, no one can get it right.
Disagreeing and misunderstanding are not interchangeable terms, agreed Delicate?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(December 16, 2015 at 8:46 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Delicate, are you really not tired of repeating the same lie, over and again?
Most of the board members here are former Christians, and we understand the religion quite well, especially now that we're on the outside looking back at the reasons we once chose to believe. I would suggest, then, that it is you who fails to understand, because you blind yourself with the culture and thought-limitations imposed by any system of belief.
Atheism has no system of belief; it is the absence of a belief. You too are an atheist, with regard to all the other religions that we also don't believe in (e.g. Islam), and that lack of faith in the other religions is not a thing, for you, either. How hard is this to understand?
It is true that, as atheists, there are things we commonly accept, such as the findings of science, because we have no preset reason to reject those findings as tentatively true, and we believe them only to the degree that they are actually proved (or suspected of being true, based on inferences from data, a much lower level of acceptance... an example would be Dark Matter/Energy). But we do not have leaders, or even a true group identity-- we are as likely to disagree on every other subject as we are with you.
The one thing we do agree on is that your ideas about God are as transparent and false as all those other religions you already reject. You just can't see that the same thing applies to your own, and the mental programming you have installed on your operating system protects itself by keeping you from seeing it. One day, you may gain a greater understanding, as we did when we left Christianity behind.
You should also really work harder at not trying to tell us that faith is knowledge, when it is already defined in Hebrews 11:1 as "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." In other words, you simply believe it's a fact even though it's not detectable, and is actually just the product of your hope. That's pretty much the definition of imaginary.
In the meantime, by all means, keep insisting that it is we who have a lack of understanding. I'd be curious to know what part of Christianity you think I (and most of us here) fail to grasp. Vicarious atonement? Original (and heritable) sin?
Thanks Rocket. Very well said. I was trying to remember that Hebrews verse, too tired and lazy to google it . . . thanks for finding it for us!
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
(December 15, 2015 at 10:25 pm)Delicate Wrote: Bogo = Boghossian.
Village atheist is the atheist equivalent to a village idiot, as opposed to an atheist who is well-informed and educated, capable of nuance and distinction in their atheism.
And secular priests are those people, be they on youtube, or who write books, or what have you, that teach atheists the kind of beliefs and ideas (fallacious though they may be) that they learn.
Not everything you believe is based on concrete data. As someone who actually has to study epistemology, I can tell you that much. You, and everyone else, all possess various beliefs that are held on faith, or trust. Or that are believed without evidence. That's a discussion worth having in its own right with people who seem to be operating under this scientistic caricature of the real world (no doubt a mainstay of atheistic dogma) that is the subject of refutations time and time again.
So no, knowledge is NOT (all) provable data. Religion is certainly not unique in asking people to place trust. And this idea that the only kind of worthwhile knowledge is provable data.
As someone who actually has done my share of reading in epistemology, would you want to have a discussion about this?
Huh whut???
No, I have had enough of fairy tales and apologetics trying to "prove" those fantasies are real, thank you very much. I'll place my trust in science and provable data.
Oh okay. Do you have any science and provable data to demonstrate that academic epistemology, a field developed over thousands of years in philosophy is fairytales and "apologetics"?
(watch how atheism ruins the minds of even people who claim to have phds!)
(December 16, 2015 at 8:46 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Delicate, are you really not tired of repeating the same lie, over and again?
Most of the board members here are former Christians, and we understand the religion quite well, especially now that we're on the outside looking back at the reasons we once chose to believe. I would suggest, then, that it is you who fails to understand, because you blind yourself with the culture and thought-limitations imposed by any system of belief.
Atheism has no system of belief; it is the absence of a belief. You too are an atheist, with regard to all the other religions that we also don't believe in (e.g. Islam), and that lack of faith in the other religions is not a thing, for you, either. How hard is this to understand?
It is true that, as atheists, there are things we commonly accept, such as the findings of science, because we have no preset reason to reject those findings as tentatively true, and we believe them only to the degree that they are actually proved (or suspected of being true, based on inferences from data, a much lower level of acceptance... an example would be Dark Matter/Energy). But we do not have leaders, or even a true group identity-- we are as likely to disagree on every other subject as we are with you.
The one thing we do agree on is that your ideas about God are as transparent and false as all those other religions you already reject. You just can't see that the same thing applies to your own, and the mental programming you have installed on your operating system protects itself by keeping you from seeing it. One day, you may gain a greater understanding, as we did when we left Christianity behind.
You should also really work harder at not trying to tell us that faith is knowledge, when it is already defined in Hebrews 11:1 as "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." In other words, you simply believe it's a fact even though it's not detectable, and is actually just the product of your hope. That's pretty much the definition of imaginary.
In the meantime, by all means, keep insisting that it is we who have a lack of understanding. I'd be curious to know what part of Christianity you think I (and most of us here) fail to grasp. Vicarious atonement? Original (and heritable) sin?
Are you done with the atheist sermonizing? Because I'm a skeptic. I don't believe your atheist fairytales.
If you want to have a real conversation, as opposed to preach at me, you can start by demonstrating the truth of your claims in this post.
(December 16, 2015 at 2:08 am)drfuzzy Wrote: Huh whut???
No, I have had enough of fairy tales and apologetics trying to "prove" those fantasies are real, thank you very much. I'll place my trust in science and provable data.
Oh okay. Do you have any science and provable data to demonstrate that academic epistemology, a field developed over thousands of years in philosophy is fairytales and "apologetics"?
(watch how atheism ruins the minds of even people who claim to have phds!)
(December 16, 2015 at 8:46 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:
Delicate, are you really not tired of repeating the same lie, over and again?
Most of the board members here are former Christians, and we understand the religion quite well, especially now that we're on the outside looking back at the reasons we once chose to believe. I would suggest, then, that it is you who fails to understand, because you blind yourself with the culture and thought-limitations imposed by any system of belief.
Atheism has no system of belief; it is the absence of a belief. You too are an atheist, with regard to all the other religions that we also don't believe in (e.g. Islam), and that lack of faith in the other religions is not a thing, for you, either. How hard is this to understand?
It is true that, as atheists, there are things we commonly accept, such as the findings of science, because we have no preset reason to reject those findings as tentatively true, and we believe them only to the degree that they are actually proved (or suspected of being true, based on inferences from data, a much lower level of acceptance... an example would be Dark Matter/Energy). But we do not have leaders, or even a true group identity-- we are as likely to disagree on every other subject as we are with you.
The one thing we do agree on is that your ideas about God are as transparent and false as all those other religions you already reject. You just can't see that the same thing applies to your own, and the mental programming you have installed on your operating system protects itself by keeping you from seeing it. One day, you may gain a greater understanding, as we did when we left Christianity behind.
You should also really work harder at not trying to tell us that faith is knowledge, when it is already defined in Hebrews 11:1 as "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." In other words, you simply believe it's a fact even though it's not detectable, and is actually just the product of your hope. That's pretty much the definition of imaginary.
In the meantime, by all means, keep insisting that it is we who have a lack of understanding. I'd be curious to know what part of Christianity you think I (and most of us here) fail to grasp. Vicarious atonement? Original (and heritable) sin?
Are you done with the atheist sermonizing? Because I'm a skeptic. I don't believe your atheist fairytales.
If you want to have a real conversation, as opposed to preach at me, you can start by demonstrating the truth of your claims in this post.
I'll wait.
Wow! Delicate actually has a sense of humor! I didn't think so, because of all of the snarky, childish, egotistical insults, and links to logical fallacies 101, but that was pretty good.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
December 16, 2015 at 4:57 pm (This post was last modified: December 16, 2015 at 4:58 pm by Delicate.)
(December 16, 2015 at 4:37 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:
(December 16, 2015 at 4:13 pm)Delicate Wrote: Oh okay. Do you have any science and provable data to demonstrate that academic epistemology, a field developed over thousands of years in philosophy is fairytales and "apologetics"?
(watch how atheism ruins the minds of even people who claim to have phds!)
Are you done with the atheist sermonizing? Because I'm a skeptic. I don't believe your atheist fairytales.
If you want to have a real conversation, as opposed to preach at me, you can start by demonstrating the truth of your claims in this post.
I'll wait.
Wow! Delicate actually has a sense of humor! I didn't think so, because of all of the snarky, childish, egotistical insults, and links to logical fallacies 101, but that was pretty good.
I'm not sure what part of that was a "sermon", or what claims I've made (according to you) which are unsubstantiated. I'm not being funny, here; you genuinely lost me with that response.
Perhaps you'd like to clarify? In that case, I'd be happy to respond.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
(December 16, 2015 at 4:37 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Wow! Delicate actually has a sense of humor! I didn't think so, because of all of the snarky, childish, egotistical insults, and links to logical fallacies 101, but that was pretty good.
So, no evidence for what you believe?
As you have been told dozens of times here - the evidence must be provided by the person making the claim. That's you. We have stated the reasons for our skeptic stance repeatedly. If you believe god exists, the burden of proof falls on you to provide measurable, verifiable, scientific evidence. Books and stories and philosophies and musings on the state of whatever is not evidence. A list of laughable logical fallacies is not evidence.
So I'm done with you, until you provide real proof. You can pat yourself on the back and tell yourself more lies about how you "won", and how stupid atheists are. You will anyway. Trying to explain a simple lack of belief in deities to you is about as worthwhile as trying to nail jello to the wall.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
(December 16, 2015 at 5:10 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: I'm not sure what part of that was a "sermon", or what claims I've made (according to you) which are unsubstantiated. I'm not being funny, here; you genuinely lost me with that response.
Perhaps you'd like to clarify? In that case, I'd be happy to respond.
Go your post and look at what was asserted baldly without evidence.
thanks for finding it for us!
