Meaningfulness v meaninglessness; theism vs atheism;

[Ashendant]

@ DvF

You can enjoy a great story besides the fact it's nothing but fantasy. It can add meaning to your life despite its unreality.

As with meaning itself, who cares if it is all an illusion and imaginary if it's harmless and we recognize it as such? It still exists in the sense that the story of Lord of the Rings exists.

Yeah but any good myth/story should hit on truths ( I mean that in the absolute sense) what makes them good is that they give a vehicle in which universal truths can be presented. In LOTRO we are told that there is a cosmic struggle between good and evil, that even the weakest of people can change the world for the better. That we are not alone in our stuggle even when we feel alone. There there is a God with a plan, who has given us what is necessary to over come evil. And that good will win in the end.

@zen

Since morality changes over time and is different from place to place and society to society the ONLY place it will be found is in peoples heads.

Or does your god keep changing his mind about what is moral??

False, lets say someone believes that there is no gravity and that they floating everywhere, this would not disprove gravity. All you have done is shown that people have made mistakes with morality because it is a hard subject. And if you look hard enough you will see that morals are more similar than they appear at first glance. For example, people in India cremate, Christians bury, but the morals behind this is respect your dead. Also, some issues of morality are largely subjective.

Doesn't mean respect for the dead is objective since, there are lot of people that are dis-respective to fellow human corpses, morality is subjective in it's entirety any thing that humanity thinks is subjective, the only exception is when it deals directly with the universe(science)

[KichigaiNeko]

@ DvF

You can enjoy a great story besides the fact it's nothing but fantasy. It can add meaning to your life despite its unreality.

As with meaning itself, who cares if it is all an illusion and imaginary if it's harmless and we recognize it as such? It still exists in the sense that the story of Lord of the Rings exists.

Yeah but any good myth/story should hit on truths ( I mean that in the absolute sense) what makes them good is that they give a vehicle in which universal truths can be presented. In LOTRO we are told that there is a cosmic struggle between good and evil, that even the weakest of people can change the world for the better. That we are not alone in our stuggle even when we feel alone. There there is a God with a plan, who has given us what is necessary to over come evil. And that good will win in the end.

Why?? Because Your infantile belief system demands it dqualk??? Poor baby

@zen

Since morality changes over time and is different from place to place and society to society the ONLY place it will be found is in peoples heads.

Or does your god keep changing his mind about what is moral??

False, lets say someone believes that there is no gravity and that they floating everywhere, this would not disprove gravity. All you have done is shown that people have made mistakes with morality because it is a hard subject. And if you look hard enough you will see that morals are more similar than they appear at first glance. For example, people in India cremate, Christians bury, but the morals behind this is respect your dead. Also, some issues of morality are largely subjective.

Lets just say that you have no idea dqualk. 'Morality' is a word coined by ellitist snobs. morals are just a socio-survival mechanism that do not need a 'skydaddy with a big stick' to make them work...nothing more

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Quite frankly I would rather believe in "Ceiling Cat" "The Invisible Pink Unicorn" or "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" as a guide to morality as I do NOT find much morality in the Catahotonic church...just hypocrisy and a desire to out Jew the Jewish faith.

[Zen Badger]

False, lets say someone believes that there is no gravity and that they floating everywhere, this would not disprove gravity.

Well you go right ahead and stop believing in gravity, let me know how you go.
That is my point, gravity is not subject to belief, disbelief, peoples opinions or disapproval.
It just IS, and will continue to be no matter how much you might want to think otherwise. On the other hand morality is very subject to peoples beliefs and opinions( and prejudices,and hatreds, and fears for that matter)

All you have done is shown that people have made mistakes with morality because it is a hard subject.

They are mistaken because they have arrived at a different set of values that yours? How arrogantly christian that attitude is.

And if you look hard enough you will see that morals are more similar than they appear at first glance. For example, people in India cremate, Christians bury, but the morals behind this is respect your dead.

Really? and what about cannibalism, quite common in several societies(some quite advanced) which was often considered a mark of respect to your fallen enemy.

Or Slavery? in the OT god sets down quite specific rules for how to treat slaves yet what christian country today permits slavery?

Even the morality set down in your bible has changed, or are you willing to go down to your local MacDonalds next Sunday morning and stone the staff to death for working on the Sabbath?

Also, some issues of morality are largely subjective.

No, they are ALL subjective, and you have yet to show otherwise.

[Watson]

Actually, it absolutely is an apt analogy.

I love alliteration.

You can enjoy a great story besides the fact it's nothing but fantasy. It can add meaning to your life despite its unreality.

How exactly does it add meaning to one's life if it is meaningless by nature?

As with meaning itself, who cares if it is all an illusion and imaginary if it's harmless and we recognize it as such?

Because it is not harmless at all to think of oneself as meaningless. Nor is it harmless to think of oneself as meaningful. Our own sense of meaning defines who we are, and affects how we impact the world. Imagine that someone, somewhere out there is meant to make a huge difference in the world by doing something incredible.

But they don't believe in any true meaning. They wont seek their own self-meaning and may miss the chance to make the impact they were supposed to. Sure, they may stumble across it by accident; but will they then be prepared for what they are meant to do?

[dqualk]

I think its hilarious that you people condemn pedophiles and the Catholic Church but ultimately you believe in a subjective morality. I absolutely comden pedophiles becuase I actually believe its always and everywhere evil. But is it not heroic to live for what you believe is right. Isnt that why many of you support homosexuality. I mean how do you condemn the Church or evil men when there is no evil. What exactly are you condmening. I'm just saying. I think we all believe in right and wrong, some of us just suppress its reality.

[Autumnlicious]

I think its hilarious that you people condemn pedophiles and the Catholic Church but ultimately you believe in a subjective morality. I absolutely comden pedophiles becuase I actually believe its always and everywhere evil. But is it not heroic to live for what you believe is right. Isnt that why many of you support homosexuality. I mean how do you condemn the Church or evil men when there is no evil. What exactly are you condmening. I'm just saying. I think we all believe in right and wrong, some of us just suppress its reality.

Subjective morality examines "right" and "wrong" through a variety of methods, like harm caused. In this case, having little children endure a radical arsehole restructuring at the hands of sexually repressed priests and then covering up aforementioned crime at an institutional level is most definitely harmful and "wrong."

It is "evil" in your words.

Homosexuals, for good or ill, are like straight people. When they form consenting bonds with others, it is normal and not harmful to each other. When one harms another, we consider a breach or violation to have taken place and judge through that.

Why can we hate the Church over it?

Because certain papal-cocksuckers would choose to defend an entity doing unabashed evil to our most vulnerable young.

Ain't that a bitch?

[thesummerqueen]

This is the debate that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started arguin' it no knowing what it was, and we will go on arguin' it forever just because...

[Rhizomorph13]

Charlie horse!

[Autumnlicious]

This is the debate that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started arguin' it no knowing what it was, and we will go on arguin' it forever just because...

It's ONLY 150-ish posts in.

I see you and raise you "Objectification of Women" thread for the thread-that-almost-did-not-die.

[thesummerqueen]

I refuse to look at it on the grounds that 1) I might add to it and 2) I objectify women all the time...otherwise I wouldn't watch Kate Beckinsale (in Underworld) in the dark. Ahem.