Intelligent Design

[Edwardo Piet]

Fuck this stupid bullshit equivocation. I'm off for a turtley wankering session

[GUBU]

I think it's disappointing that after 34 pages of a thread entitled "Intelligent Design" we have yet to see a single example thereof.

*cough*

Better take some Lemsip, before that cold gets worse.

Better yet have a hot toddy.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

But who can the universe create itself?

How can intelligent creatures (such as humans) just come into being?

It just seems odd that we of all animals possess reason, free will and an actual choice making/thinking capacity.

If indeed there were no God, you'd think there we'd be smell dumb cavemen, same as 500,000 years ago ( or wheneverthe Flintstones took place!!) instead of the graceful human beings which we are today.

Gods were instrumental in the rise of agriculturally-supported cities, giving rise to artisans, aristocrats and kings. However, with their animals and the shit they used to fertilize their crops everywhere, plus limited access to bathing quantities of water, their stench made the roaming hunter-gatherers who bathed streamside smell comparably like gods. For 7,000 years, it got no better than that, and then came the Age of Reason! That reason became increasingly less about god, and do we smell any worse for it today?

[robvalue]

1. Stuff looks designed

2. Work is hard

3. Stuff is designed

4. My god did it

5. Why is it so important to convince other people of this I wonder? Are they threatening to steal my god from me?

[God of Mr. Hanky]

1. Stuff looks designed

2. Work is hard

3. Stuff is designed

4. My god did it

5. Why is it so important to convince other people of this I wonder? Are they threatening to steal my god from me?

No, they gonna steal your mind which has that god, and then they gonna shit all over it!

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

I also think that, for a number of these types of questions, the HOW and the WHY are the same thing.

HOW does the rock fall? - Gravity
WHY does the rock fall? - Gravity

No actually. It's very different.
The HOW is essentially asking what happens when a rock falls. The WHY however is asking why it is the way it is.
Two different things.
Since we can only study what is happening around us we can only give an answer for HOW, the WHY is left unanswered, because we have nothing to make observations out of, or maybe perhaps people don't realize there is a why because "but they didn't teach that in our school"
However I noticed that the why in the question of why H20 forms water and the why in the question of why 1 + 2 =3 had a very good correlation and followed a good identical pattern. I know the number system is just a number system and nothing more, I know we aren't god, I used that example so that people can better grasp what I was getting across. If you consider the number system and humans the number system is basically that something humans created, we thought up of it and then we implemented it. And when you consider the why of the why is 1 + 2 = 3 in the number system the answer would be that it is because of the way we designed the addition operation and number system. For example, if we had designed the operation addition as x + y = xy then we'd have 1 + 2 = 2, why do we get 2? Because of how we had designed the operation. Since intelligent beings designed it, it is a product of intelligent design. It's the same thing with my example of water, almost identical to the example I gave above, only thing is we knew who designed the number system, we don't know who designed the rules of our universe..

[Old Baby]

I also think that, for a number of these types of questions, the HOW and the WHY are the same thing.

HOW does the rock fall? - Gravity
WHY does the rock fall? - Gravity

No actually. It's very different.
The HOW is essentially asking what happens when a rock falls. The WHY however is asking why it is the way it is.
Two different things.
Since we can only study what is happening around us we can only give an answer for HOW, the WHY is left unanswered, because we have nothing to make observations out of, or maybe perhaps people don't realize there is a why because "but they didn't teach that in our school"
However I noticed that the why in the question of why H20 forms water and the why in the question of why 1 + 2 =3 had a very good correlation and followed a good identical pattern. I know the number system is just a number system and nothing more, I know we aren't god, I used that example so that people can better grasp what I was getting across. If you consider the number system and humans the number system is basically that something humans created, we thought up of it and then we implemented it. And when you consider the why of the why is 1 + 2 = 3 in the number system the answer would be that it is because of the way we designed the addition operation and number system. For example, if we had designed the operation addition as x + y = xy then we'd have 1 + 2 = 2, why do we get 2? Because of how we had designed the operation. Since intelligent beings designed it, it is a product of intelligent design. It's the same thing with my example of water, almost identical to the example I gave above, only thing is we knew who designed the number system, we don't know who designed the rules of our universe..

I'm still confused on why we even need to ask "Why?"  WHY implies intent or purpose.  It presupposes intelligence.  It's word games, not evidence, not even an argument.  Before anyone is going to worry about the "Why?" question, you have to show that it's relevant.  It's like asking, "Why are the chip crumbs always at the bottom of the sack?"  Asking "How?" or "Why=How?" are reasonable questions, but why would anyone assume that there's purpose behind the crumbs going to the bottom of the sack?  No one is going to consider asking or answering that question unless it can be shown that there's actually a good reason to believe there is a purpose behind the crumbs going to the bottom.

[downbeatplumb]

It's ID because it follows the same pattern of something that could be considered ID.
Consider the number system humans created. We are the gods. We created them. We decide how they function, or to be more precise we design how they function.
The same thing with my example of water, the only difference is we don't know who decided to make them function the way they function.
String theory says it's because of random physical properties attributed to the universe during the beginning.
If natural causes and random events can affect the constraints of something, then the constraints are bound to change.
There is no recorded history of anything other than H20 producing water, meaning the rules didn't change, it stayed the same.
So rule out random events.
We are left with ID.

Edit:
also, good night, i have class tomorrow :/ and its 1:30 am

Ah I see you do not understand how numbers work.
In the past people noticed that there were things, they decided to call a lone thing "one" they noticed that sometimes there were other things so they decided to invent the other numbers to make groups of those one things. Now you could do things with these groups of one thing, you could take some away and add others, you could add different things. And so maths was born, by observation of reality, just like every other thing, we noticed that stuff happened and come up with a rational method of dealing with it.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

No actually. It's very different.
The HOW is essentially asking what happens when a rock falls. The WHY however is asking why it is the way it is.
Two different things.
Since we can only study what is happening around us we can only give an answer for HOW, the WHY is left unanswered, because we have nothing to make observations out of, or maybe perhaps people don't realize there is a why because "but they didn't teach that in our school"
However I noticed that the why in the question of why H20 forms water and the why in the question of why 1 + 2 =3 had a very good correlation and followed a good identical pattern. I know the number system is just a number system and nothing more, I know we aren't god, I used that example so that people can better grasp what I was getting across. If you consider the number system and humans the number system is basically that something humans created, we thought up of it and then we implemented it. And when you consider the why of the why is 1 + 2 = 3 in the number system the answer would be that it is because of the way we designed the addition operation and number system. For example, if we had designed the operation addition as x + y = xy then we'd have 1 + 2 = 2, why do we get 2? Because of how we had designed the operation. Since intelligent beings designed it, it is a product of intelligent design. It's the same thing with my example of water, almost identical to the example I gave above, only thing is we knew who designed the number system, we don't know who designed the rules of our universe..

I'm still confused on why we even need to ask "Why?"  WHY implies intent or purpose.  It presupposes intelligence.  It's word games, not evidence, not even an argument.  Before anyone is going to worry about the "Why?" question, you have to show that it's relevant.  It's like asking, "Why are the chip crumbs always at the bottom of the sack?"  Asking "How?" or "Why=How?" are reasonable questions, but why would anyone assume that there's purpose behind the crumbs going to the bottom of the sack?  No one is going to consider asking or answering that question unless it can be shown that there's actually a good reason to believe there is a purpose behind the crumbs going to the bottom.

I'm still confused on why we even need to ask "Why?"

Because humans value knowledge.

WHY implies intent or purpose.  It presupposes intelligence.

Yeah, I know that. So? Pursuing knowledge should be completely abandoned if it is related with ID? I just showed that why implies intelligence and you're telling me what I was telling this whole time like a new thing? 

  It's word games, not evidence, not even an argument.  

It's not word games. I'll admit it is not strong evidence. It's just common sense, at least to me. I don't understand why people don't seem to *get* what I'm saying

  Before anyone is going to worry about the "Why?" question, you have to show that it's relevant.  

Persuasion of knowledge.
Before they figured out earth was round they all thought it was flat. You could've asked them the same thing - "Why should I care if earth is round? Why is it relevant". Persuasion of knowledge and the advancement of human kind.

Lastly, I don't think you seem to get what I'm talking about. Perhaps you think I'm trying to prove there is a God and trying to justify theism through my arguments. I don't. I just care about information. People have either not given convincing counter arguments or have not even understood what I'm talking about up until now and that is the only reason I still continue to advocate my position. You just have to look a few pages back and you'll notice that I admit with no shame when I'm wrong and accept the truth but when I'm not wrong or when people can't seem to counter properly I'm usually right, so I keep at it. *burp*

[robvalue]

Whatever answer anyone comes up with, you can always ask, "But why?"

Unless you expect an infinite regression of explanations, eventually the answer is going to be either, "I just told you why" or "That's just how it is".