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(January 27, 2016 at 6:55 am)robvalue Wrote: I appreciate you being a little less serious, but I still can't understand half of what you're saying.
Are you telling me their translation of Surah 1 was incorrect? What should it say?
I'm not being less serious, you're the one who assumed I'm too serious in the first place, rob.
Most of the translation was correct, meaning wise, but there is -at 4:58- an extra sentence that was inserted, that the original verse doesn't contain.
The sentence is "that is a perfect book"; in Verse 2.
In Arabic, it literally yields to this : "That book; there is no doubt about it; a guidance for the cautious".
Just to preserve the linguistic integrity; if the first verse is mistranslated like this, I can't trust the rest of the translations.
You can have two translations, both for the same verse, but one draws a disgusting vibe around God, yet the other draws a lovely vibe that can make you cry.
The words must be translated literally, so the foreign reader can get the verse like Arabs do.
Ah.. I found another problem at verse 4 : it's not "observe the prayer", rather, it's "Establish", literally.
Quote:I'm not basing my opinions on their opinions, I'm basing them on what the Quran says. And unless you're saying they are misquoting it, then that's perfectly justified. The fact that I get some laughs along the way instead of being bored to tears is a bonus.
I have no idea what you're talking about with Marilyn Manson, sorry.
Who's a bully exactly? I can't follow you. Sure, they make some stereotype jokes. Big deal. They're not inciting violence, nor do they mean half of what they say. They are jokes, they are making fun of the people who do hold such stereotypes.
Don't misunderstand me rob : I have nothing to do with what you will believe. I'm not violating your right to believe what you want or forcing down an idea on you.
The bully is the guy talking in the video. Personally, I believe that a bully is a person who targets a group of people or a single individual , and causes damage to them. Some bullies use comedy to achieve their damage, others use violence, either it's psychological or physical : it hurts; in addition; The psychological pain is always there.
My point about Marylin, is taken from the song I posted in my previous post. A kid gets bullied, he goes mad, brings a gun and shoots at school, then the media throws it on Eminem or Marylin Manson, instead of the real causes. Eminem was referring to that fact.
In other words, I'm saying that such attitude can hurt others, and it can be considered as an act of bullying, and if the person under attack has no self control, disasters might happen. And when that happens, it gets blamed on Islam, while in reality : it happened because a person was feeling bullied and isolated.
Quote:Are you serious with this? Really? Please tell me this was a joke. The Quran is filthy and disgusting, but it's OK, because everything is! No. It's not OK at all. It's not OK our countries are how they are, and it's not OK that the Quran is how it is. You can't excuse a supposed benevolent being from torturing things forever by erroneous analogies with what humans do. Especially since Surah 1 makes it clear he chooses exactly who he is going to torture. Really, what is the point of this book anyway, if Allah has already decided everything that is going to happen in advance? Unless Allah is actually just a human, after all. You see your own book is horrible but you worship it anyway. And again the analogy does not work, because I don't worship governments. I don't praise them if they make horrific decisions or threaten people. And I don't have the power to make it all better, like Allah does but refuses to.
The Quran is a big book. 604 pages to be precise. To fetch a single meaning/sentence out of it, you must go through the whole book to make sure that you got the whole meaning.
For example, the "everlasting agony and torture". Later on in the Quran, there is clear evidence that it might not be eternal at all. Actually, I'm 99% close to believe that myself. It doesn't contradict itself at all, yet to see that you either need to know Arabic very well, or have a literal translation of the book, along with reading the book constantly to cover every corner.
I didn't believe in it easily.
As for the torture. My personal view towards God, is that he's not a man, woman, human, alien, or anything like we ever seen. It's just like the universe and our lives : it's there. Believing in it or not will never change a thing. The sun rises either we believe it or not, well, black holes always existed, even before the rise of modern physics. God is just like that. He's there.
The torture is a mere aftermath of not listening to this entity. Unlike anything else, this God is a creator. An origin that produces, he produces and creates and governs it all with laws, with the first and last rule sitting on this system : who follows and stays in line lives & prospers, who drifts break and shatter.
we see it in the universe. We see it on earth. We see it everywhere.
Because of the above, I learned to accept it as it is. The torture verses are just a description. I can easily say that hell might be a black hole or a large star.
We are born, just to accept things as it is.
The torture exists, because that God is just. And when people are hurt, he inflicts the pain they felt on the source that caused it to them.
Quote:See, I've only witnessed the first couple of bits in the Quran, and already the religion is falling into place for me. You even admit the book is horrific, so really, I'm not telling you anything new here. Why you want to worship a disgusting monster is what puzzles me. I know (as far as it's possible to know anything) that there is no Allah, but the fact that you think it's real, and still choose to follow it, is really bizarre to me.
The universe is too wonderful yet deadly, or so I thought. When seeing a baby deer being torn to pieces by a pack of cheetahs, how something so beautiful can be turned in moments into a bloody mess, how the sunrise seems so joyful yet in reality; it's a burning star.
This makes me believe in him.
January 27, 2016 at 6:31 pm (This post was last modified: January 27, 2016 at 6:33 pm by WinterHold.)
(January 27, 2016 at 8:41 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Atlas, in the first post of the topic called "
Islam and its History and Impact of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)", Yukapuka says:
4. Sabines. They worshipped the stars.
(I assumed Yukapuka meant Sabians)
So that's where I got the star worship from. What you say is likely more correct than Yukapuka's assertions, but because they said the Sabians worship stars I pointed out what the Quran says about them. I have no idea where this person got the idea that they worship stars (but they did cite some history books) so you'll have to raise it with them; I was merely commenting on their claims.
In my own research I did come across some "Christians" who live in Iraq today who claim to be Sabians. However, I'm not sure how similar they are to the Sabians the Quran asserts existed in modern day Yemen. Funnily enough, if I remember rightly, the Sharia says Christians are polytheists whereas the Quran gives them the distinction of being "people of the book" (i.e. not polytheists).
I will check the sources I have, MNMP, and reply back.
The word "Sabine" itself الصابئين , is taken from the Arabic word "stars" or is evolved around stars. Just to add more, it was about how stars change locations ? or something similar. I have the reference somewhere
January 27, 2016 at 8:01 pm (This post was last modified: January 27, 2016 at 8:17 pm by ReptilianPeon.
Edit Reason: Added link to Wikipedia
)
So you don't have to go looking for it, here is my entire post about Sabians in reply to Yukapuka, who never got back to me (you can click on the quote links of Yukapuka's post to see the rest of the post I quoted):
(by the way, when I said Allah cannot forgive Shirk as something Allah cannot do, this is wrong because Allah chooses not to forgive Shirk, but I know of other things Allah cannot do).
(January 6, 2016 at 5:35 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: First of all, if you're going to be so ritualistic as to say (PBUH) all the time, how about using the Unicode character for it? ﷺ
(January 6, 2016 at 9:37 am)yukapuka Wrote: Firstly the majority of the Arab people were a desolate people, heavily and completely isolated and ignorant of even the outside world, they lived in the desert in very tough conditions that probably most other nations would not have hung around very long due to the scarcity of water and food in general and most other nations didnt even bother to have any relations with them trade or otherwise, they were as described by one English author
I have to cast doubt on that claim. It's apparently not true according to the Quran. There are two Iyah that imply that the people of Mecca, at least, were not isolated. All of my translations will be Abdullah Yusuf Ali and I will not be referring to any Hadith (I don't like the Hadith).
Quran 2:127 "And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing."
and Quran 3:96 "The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:"
While it is true that nobody bothered to conquer (southern) Arabia*, the Quran claims that Mecca is an ancient city (it's nowhere near as old as the Quran claims) and the first place of worship. In particular Quran 3:96 claims that the original Mosque was built at Bakkah (Mecca) which would make it older than all Churches, Synagogues and any other place of worship you can think of.
*You'd think that Mecca being an important place of pilgrimage for thousands of years, as the two Iyah claim, would give empires reason to conquer it, so they could control the flow of money into Mecca, but no. The reason is Mecca didn't exist until shortly before the time of Muhammad because there is no archaeology to support the claims that the Quran makes about it.
But let's assume the Quran is actually correct, for the sake of argument, and that Mecca is this ancient city that people have gone on pilgrimage to for many thousands of years. How can you claim that the Arabs were isolated? People mingle during pilgrimage. They will inevitably talk to each other whilst in Mecca and, therefore, facilitate the flow of ideas across all of Arabia. Your assumption that the Arabs were isolated is simply not true if we assume the Quran is correct about history (which it is not).
(January 6, 2016 at 9:37 am)yukapuka Wrote: 4. Sabines. They worshipped the stars.
Second, the Sabines lived in Italy, so I assume you mean Sabians. Funny that you should say they worship the stars. Quran 2:62 claims that the Sabians will go to Jannah:
"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
However, Quran 41:37 says this:
"Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve."
This verse mentions the sun specifically. And the stars are suns also. So, if we extrapolate, the Sabians are clearly committing Shirk - the worst sin (if they worship the stars, as you claimed). You claimed the Sabians commit Shirk yet, oddly, Quran 2:62 claims that the Sabians will go to Jannah. Who is right? I thought Shirk was the ultimate, unforgivable, sin?
Quran 4:48 "Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed."
Quran 4:48 surely contradicts Quran 2:62, especially since Quran 41:37 mentions star worship as a specific sin (i.e. Shirk). Given what Quran 4:48 says, even if a Sabian was to recite Shahada, they will not go to Jannah despite what Quran 2:62 says. Why is there this crucial error in the Quran? How can you explain that away?
Quran 4:48 is interesting for another reason as well. It mentions something that Allah clearly cannot do. Which is another contradiction.
Quran 35:44 says that Allah is all powerful (Allah can do anything):
"Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the End of those before them,- though they were superior to them in strength? Nor is Allah to be frustrated by anything whatever in the heavens or on earth: for He is All-Knowing. All-Powerful."
But Allah is unable to forgive Shirk, so that means there are things which Allah cannot do. Even if we exclude Shirk, does the verse mean Allah can lie or mislead? If Allah can't lie, then Allah can't be all-powerful, as the Iyah claims.
(January 6, 2016 at 9:37 am)yukapuka Wrote: Arabian people where cut off from the rest of the world with illiteracy and the problems and ignorance and the hot heat of the desert that isolated the people from going forward in any of those directions as death shadoweded them in all direction, from society and from the harsh weather and their own ignorance
Being illiterate doesn't mean you're completely ignorant. You can still acquire knowledge. And, as I said, the Quran asserts that Mecca is at least as old as Abraham, so would have always (according to the Quran) been pretty important (i.e. not isolated as you claim).
That's all I got for now. Thanks for for reading. I'm sure there will much disagreement to come.
I cited many different Quran Iyah, so I'm sure you can have fun with those. N.B. The Sabines lived in Italy 1st century BC(Wikipedia article on them) so I was confused at first. But I quickly realized that Yukapuka must be talking about the Sabians.
January 27, 2016 at 8:21 pm (This post was last modified: January 27, 2016 at 8:38 pm by ReptilianPeon.)
(January 27, 2016 at 1:39 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: If you guys are interested in how the philosophy of Wilayah (Authority of God and his chosen ones) and the structure of religion as is, is complimented Surah to Surah, I'm doing a thread about this issue right here: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/2350...ason-meet/
Perhaps I'll find loads of people with a mutual hatred of al-Saud and their cronies (like Zakir Naik*, al-Saud's henchmen in Iraq and Syria and Peace TV, who all serve different purposes for al-Saud) on that website. Certainly worth a look when I have a spare moment. If I was forced to, I'd pick Shia over Sunni any day. Although Sufis smoke Hashish which I think is cool. However, Ahmadis are probably the most reasonable sect.
*Zaikir Naik is not a real medical doctor; he's not on the Indian Medical Register.
January 28, 2016 at 2:37 am (This post was last modified: January 28, 2016 at 2:38 am by WinterHold.)
(January 27, 2016 at 8:01 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: So you don't have to go looking for it, here is my entire post about Sabians in reply to Yukapuka, who never got back to me (you can click on the quote links of Yukapuka's post to see the rest of the post I quoted):
(by the way, when I said Allah cannot forgive Shirk as something Allah cannot do, this is wrong because Allah chooses not to forgive Shirk, but I know of other things Allah cannot do).
(January 6, 2016 at 5:35 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: First of all, if you're going to be so ritualistic as to say (PBUH) all the time, how about using the Unicode character for it? ﷺ
I have to cast doubt on that claim. It's apparently not true according to the Quran. There are two Iyah that imply that the people of Mecca, at least, were not isolated. All of my translations will be Abdullah Yusuf Ali and I will not be referring to any Hadith (I don't like the Hadith).
Quran 2:127 "And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing."
and Quran 3:96 "The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:"
While it is true that nobody bothered to conquer (southern) Arabia*, the Quran claims that Mecca is an ancient city (it's nowhere near as old as the Quran claims) and the first place of worship. In particular Quran 3:96 claims that the original Mosque was built at Bakkah (Mecca) which would make it older than all Churches, Synagogues and any other place of worship you can think of.
*You'd think that Mecca being an important place of pilgrimage for thousands of years, as the two Iyah claim, would give empires reason to conquer it, so they could control the flow of money into Mecca, but no. The reason is Mecca didn't exist until shortly before the time of Muhammad because there is no archaeology to support the claims that the Quran makes about it.
But let's assume the Quran is actually correct, for the sake of argument, and that Mecca is this ancient city that people have gone on pilgrimage to for many thousands of years. How can you claim that the Arabs were isolated? People mingle during pilgrimage. They will inevitably talk to each other whilst in Mecca and, therefore, facilitate the flow of ideas across all of Arabia. Your assumption that the Arabs were isolated is simply not true if we assume the Quran is correct about history (which it is not).
Second, the Sabines lived in Italy, so I assume you mean Sabians. Funny that you should say they worship the stars. Quran 2:62 claims that the Sabians will go to Jannah:
"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
However, Quran 41:37 says this:
"Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve."
This verse mentions the sun specifically. And the stars are suns also. So, if we extrapolate, the Sabians are clearly committing Shirk - the worst sin (if they worship the stars, as you claimed). You claimed the Sabians commit Shirk yet, oddly, Quran 2:62 claims that the Sabians will go to Jannah. Who is right? I thought Shirk was the ultimate, unforgivable, sin?
Quran 4:48 "Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed."
Quran 4:48 surely contradicts Quran 2:62, especially since Quran 41:37 mentions star worship as a specific sin (i.e. Shirk). Given what Quran 4:48 says, even if a Sabian was to recite Shahada, they will not go to Jannah despite what Quran 2:62 says. Why is there this crucial error in the Quran? How can you explain that away?
Quran 4:48 is interesting for another reason as well. It mentions something that Allah clearly cannot do. Which is another contradiction.
Quran 35:44 says that Allah is all powerful (Allah can do anything):
"Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the End of those before them,- though they were superior to them in strength? Nor is Allah to be frustrated by anything whatever in the heavens or on earth: for He is All-Knowing. All-Powerful."
But Allah is unable to forgive Shirk, so that means there are things which Allah cannot do. Even if we exclude Shirk, does the verse mean Allah can lie or mislead? If Allah can't lie, then Allah can't be all-powerful, as the Iyah claims.
Being illiterate doesn't mean you're completely ignorant. You can still acquire knowledge. And, as I said, the Quran asserts that Mecca is at least as old as Abraham, so would have always (according to the Quran) been pretty important (i.e. not isolated as you claim).
That's all I got for now. Thanks for for reading. I'm sure there will much disagreement to come.
I cited many different Quran Iyah, so I'm sure you can have fun with those. N.B. The Sabines lived in Italy 1st century BC(Wikipedia article on them) so I was confused at first. But I quickly realized that Yukapuka must be talking about the Sabians.
The Sabines in the Quran has nothing to do with the Sabines of Italy.
To make sure that I'm saying the truth, search their name in Arabic on Wikipedia, then translate the page to English :
Their name is written like this :
(January 24, 2016 at 7:26 am)robvalue Wrote: Many of you have probably seen some of The Bible Reloaded where Hugo and Jake laugh at the bible.
Well I just noticed they've started with the Quran! I've not even watched it yet, so I've jumped in to let you know. I've been looking forward to this! These guys are hilarious, so I recommend getting into this series even if you've not followed them in the past. It's in two parts, the second being on a brand new channel. Jump to 8:10 in the second one to avoid watching some of the first bit again, although do watch the first one as it has extra introductory material. (Edit while watching it )
Hey Mystic Knight, I managed to find the "dark force" that stops people believing in Allah. It's Allah. It says so in the first Surah. Case closed surprisingly easily!
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
Well that's what I've been saying, Rob. Not only that, but the devils/ Shaytan are chained up during the month of Ramadan (at least according to certain Hadith; this might be in the Quran too). So if you have doubts during Ramadan you can be sure it's not the fault of the Shaytan. In short, that's the main reason how this one lady at least (whom Matt Dillahunty interviewed for YouTube, I can't remember her name) went from being part of the Ummah to disbelief. She noticed that she was having doubts during Ramadan when the Shaytan is weakest.
January 28, 2016 at 7:14 am (This post was last modified: January 28, 2016 at 7:17 am by robvalue.)
Oh really? That's interesting.
Reminds me of that bit in HHGG:
"Probability factor of 1:1, we have normality. Anything you still can't deal with is therefor your own problem."
You'd think this would rattle more people, when exactly the same shit goes on with or without demons. Why Allah lets them loose again is another matter. He's just acting through them, essentially, since he knows what they will do and has infinitely many other options. If I release a T-Rex into downtown LA I'm at least partly responsible for the carnage.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(January 28, 2016 at 6:41 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Well that's what I've been saying, Rob. Not only that, but the devils/ Shaytan are chained up during the month of Ramadan (at least according to certain Hadith; this might be in the Quran too). So if you have doubts during Ramadan you can be sure it's not the fault of the Shaytan. In short, that's the main reason how this one lady at least (whom Matt Dillahunty interviewed for YouTube, I can't remember her name) went from being part of the Ummah to disbelief. She noticed that she was having doubts during Ramadan when the Shaytan is weakest.
No, the "demon's are locked in hell during Ramadan" is a Hadith, it's not mentioned in the Quran or even cited.
Hence, Satan is overrated in the Shia/Sunni faiths, despite the Quran saying otherwise :
(Sura 14 Verse 22 ) And Satan will say when the matter has been concluded, "Indeed, Allah had promised you the promise of truth. And I promised you, but I betrayed you. But I had no authority over you except that I invited you, and you responded to me. So do not blame me; but blame yourselves. I cannot be called to your aid, nor can you be called to my aid. Indeed, I deny your association of me [with Allah] before. Indeed, for the wrongdoers is a painful punishment."
or this verse :
( Sura 4 Verse 76 ) Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of Taghut (synonym for anything that is anti-God & is being worshiped instead of God). So fight against the allies of Satan. Indeed, the plot of Satan has ever been weak.
Man's greatest enemy is man's own self.
The Quran said it too in another verse :
Sura 91 : ( 7 ) And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it
( 8 ) And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness, ( 9 ) He has succeeded who purifies it, ( 10 ) And he has failed who instills it [with corruption].
Sinning then blaming satan is one terrible mistake. I would love to quote Satan : "Do not blame me, though blame yourselves".
)
