"I disagree with you, but i don't think you're Hitler"

[Rwandrall]

You are basically arguing for the "Don't be a dick" position that was put forward by Phil Plait at a TAM as well, and though I understand where you are coming from I think that position is inherently flawed. I think there are times that being a dick works. There are also times that diplomacy works better. If you are in it to convince theists of your position both can be a valuable asset in your arsenal of persuasion tools.

Speaking from personal experience, I've changed my mind on several occassions after heated discussions where at somepoint I've been called a idiot. And though at the time that really wasn't what I wanted to hear, it was what I needed to hear.

All i can say is that i do not agree. Even if you were right in that being a dick works sometimes, i am still convinced that diplomacy is more effective, and more importantly transfers a better image to the one you are arguing against. I maintain that you are more easily convinced by someone friendly than by a douchebag.

[leo-rcc]

Then I wish you good luck in trying, that's all I can say to that.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

There are assholes on both sides, but they are still (just like the rally to restore sanity proved) far more who aren't assholes than those who make the news and have multimillion dollar contracts with Fox News to find new things to blame on democrats.

[Minimalist]

Yup, but just like being a fascist does not mean being Hitler, being a theist does not mean being a dangerous zealot.

Agreed...but the ones who are not dangerous zealots are not the problem. Most people are "religious" in the same way they are "white" or "black." They are born into it and never question it.

[Rwandrall]

Replace Fox News with MSNBC and democrats with republicans and you get a just-as-appropriate statement. Just because Fox is worse does not excuse MSNBC and other networks' blatant partiality.

But i completely agree otherwise ^^

---

Agreed...but the ones who are not dangerous zealots are not the problem. Most people are "religious" in the same way they are "white" or "black." They are born into it and never question it.

Exactly. Thing is, these people actually very rarely take their religion into account when making decisions, which means that as long as them not questioning it does not lead to bigotry and violence, i don't really see a problem.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

Replace Fox News with MSNBC and democrats with republicans and you get a just-as-appropriate statement. Just because Fox is worse does not excuse MSNBC and other networks' blatant partiality.

But i completely agree otherwise ^^

Yes, Fox and conservatives in general are worse in terms of the lies and hate speech and partisianship, but no one is excempt from this issue.
MSNBC is certainly partisian like fox, but their news reporting is not equivelent to one another.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Today I'm an atheist and a bit of an old cunt, with an exceedingly rational but visceral hatred of the Catholic church.

When I was 17, I was a devout ,activist Catholic.I was also an insufferable little prig..

My less appealing human qualities are unrelated to my atheism or to my erstwhile Catholicism.. They ARE related to my skepticism and my refusal to suffer fools,theist or atheist.

I do not automatically respect ideas,beliefs, opinions,individuals, institutions or status .My respect is earned. I owe believers exactly nothing. It is in my best interest to obey the laws which protect even the most offensive and fuckwitted.


@Rwandall; I thought toilet paper in heaven post was silly,ignorant and unfunny. SO FUCKING WHAT? No forum rules were broken. By all means express distaste and ire.But please try to lose the idea that you have any say in how people behave..

[Minimalist]

There is no comparison at all between MSNBC and FOX. MSNBC makes it clear that they are giving you THEIR opinions. FOX acts like the have the word of fucking god to dispense.

[reverendjeremiah]

If I may...

It doesnt help the ranks of the conservative leaning Christians that they have so many partial to fascist tendencies. They are actually saying that it is not "thou shalt not kill", but instead "thou shalt not murder". That way they can declare war on anyone and it suddenly becomes "legal", and okay in the eyes of their religion. Sure, their religion has many contradictions, but when you hear them publicly discussing things like this it is revolting to say the least.

I do agree that I would prefer talking with an easy going Christian over an uber conservative. I am easy going myself and have had great conversations with both types. But I would not trust being around those uber conservative types because they embrace many facets of Fascism, if not completely embracing them..and at the same time claiming they hate fascists. I even go over things with them like the 14 points of fascism and they fit into MANY of them, yet they find ways to excuse themselves of it.

I have many good friends who are Christian. Also, my website http://www.jesuschristarcade.com has gotten me many emails from easy going Christians who actually GOT the joke, and realise I wasnt just ragging on them, but on everyone. Hell, many of those Christians actually enjoyed playing my Super Jesus games and emailed me saying they enjoyed killing Allah in the game. So no, I dont automatically consider Christians or religious folk to be Hitler.

But you must admit there is a fascist element in many of the uber conservative Christians. I call them "Christian Nationalists". They scream "Christian Nation" all the time. Those are the ones I dispise.

[Ryft]

I have seen an alarming trend around the Internet: atheists insulting theists for the purpose of insulting. I mean, I have nothing against attacking and challenging their beliefs, but some of the things I see around there are not the educated argument of someone who wants to change their mindset. It is petty, it is useless, and it is simply humiliating as an atheist to see [that behavior]. Likewise, saying that being religious means being an enslaved sheep who doesn't question anything he's told is idiotic and does not further the discussion in any way. I hate the stereotype that atheists are bitter, angry people who like to act superior and condescending to anyone who does not share their views. But the problem is, I see a LOT of people corresponding to that precise stereotype, acting as though being an atheist makes them superior as human beings.

First of all, major kudos for your post; it is always very encouraging to find individuals who practice sensible and teachable skepticism. As Phil Plait said in his speech at TAM 8, skepticism and critical thinking is a hard sell in and of itself; why the hell would a person want to make it even harder? There is a nearly unlimited number of vendors engaged in telling people what to think—and some of it is quite dangerous—but so precious few of us engaged in telling people HOW to think, a cause that is thwarted by those who stake their tent in the skeptics camp but never bother practicing sensible and teachable skepticism except to other skeptics. How in the world are you ever going to inspire the credulous to think critically or rationally about their beliefs if you are content to merely ridicule and belittle them? You won't, quite frankly. We skeptics are hugely outnumbered, by several orders of magnitude, by a vast and teeming ocean of credulous people; if our goal is to teach people how to think, we will fail to even begin that task if we isolate ourselves from that throng with condescending dismissals, content to engage ourselves in convincing the already convinced, thus remaining vastly outnumbered and never growing the skeptical cause.

Second, skepticism is compatible with but does not necessarily correspond to atheism. Skepticism is not a view on metaphysics or epistemology or ethics; it is simply a heuristic device for critical thinking, rationally filtering and processing ideas and beliefs. A skeptic is someone who thinks for himself logically and questions everything, and thus includes both atheists and theists. How ever popular the notion that skepticism implies atheism, it is still wrong. Nor should one think that by virtue of being an atheist one is thus a skeptic; I am sure you have run into atheists who are definitely not skeptics. I just wanted to put that out there because more than a few atheists have thought it laughable that a Christian could identify as a skeptic, because they think being a skeptic means being an atheist.

Third, by all means one can mock and insult people all they like. That is their right, of course. But again that does absolutely nothing to advance the cause of skepticism and critical thinking. I almost never bother wasting my time with those who are content to ridicule and belittle people or their beliefs; I want the world to be a more rational and reasonable place, a goal that I work against if I waste my time with people who simply have no interest in approaching things intelligently with a shared concern for the cause of critical thinking. They want to denigrate and demean people or their beliefs? That is their right. However, pretty soon the only people left willing to interact with them are those who respond just as unintelligently. The only thing fundies have to play with are other fundies (atheist or otherwise) and nothing is advanced. Such people can spout all the trivial nonsense they like, if that is what they are happy to do. Promoting the cause of skepticism and how to think critically will be shouldered by those committed to it.