Gay, Catholic and Doing Fine

[athrock]

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that I, personally, would cheat on a partner.  I value honesty and openness - for both myself and a partner - too much to do something behind their back.  If I'm no longer interested/in love with some one, I tell them.  Period.

But, I really don't give a shit about what others do behind closed doors so long as consent is given and no harm is done.  I honestly don't understand this incessant need of some to control others' sexuality.  It's more than a bit bizarre to me.

It would be if "control" were really the issue. The REAL issue is bigger.

If God exists and if he has given us certain instructions about how we should and should not live, then it's reasonable that he might be offended if we ignore those instructions.

[The Grand Nudger]

Assuming all of that, so what? Why should I or anyone else care what offends your god?

[athrock]

As you know, I've spent a LOT of time responding to your posts. (You're the 25-year-old with the bachelor's degree in philosophy who works full time as a social worker who thinks he can take down William Lane Craig who has TWO PhD's in philosophy and spends all HIS time studying the philosophical arguments for God and other apologetics subjects.)

However, maybe I'm wrong.

I will watch your posts for some evidence that you know Jesus and Catholicism well (or at all).

BIB: I'd say thats an appeal to authority.

And how do you know Esquilax doesn't spend his time studying the same things.

You are being incredibly condescending and wonder why people are the way they are with you.

I'm not appealing to authority; I'm saying that one footballer is better than another.

WLC is a professional philosopher and apologist. Esquilax is not even an amateur; she's an internet forum member with an inflated opinion of her own knowledge of philosophy and/or debate skills.

[athrock]

And in this regard, the Catholic Church is your ally and not your enemy. LEARN. THIS.

Up yours, you little piece of shit. The catholic church as an organisation hates gays with the same passion that it used hate moriscoes. The only reason it isn't out burning gay people like it used burn the moriscoes is that it knows if it tried that today it would be fucked out of every civilised country there is.

Instead it is a lot more insidious, trying to demonise gay people on the sly, trying to make them hate themselves and trying to do them in without outright bringing out the torches and pitchforks. And you, as a gay person (if you are not lying about this as you have done with so many other things) are betraying every other single gay person in the world by defending that piece of shit organisation.

When did you leave the Catholic Church, CD? How old were you?

[LadyForCamus]

You didn't actually answer my question.  Try it again.

The lesbian says to herself, "I want to do this with another woman, and I don't care what anybody else thinks."

It's that love of self that prevents her from loving God and seeking Him above all other pleasures. (You and I have love of self issues that manifest in other ways.)

When she dies, God will not force her to spend eternity in His presence. Unfortunately, outside is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But some prefer it.

So, it's not the nature of homosexuality that qualifies her for eternal hell, it's the fact that God says "if you loved me you wouldn't do that," that is the actual sin? Why the hell would any God, creator of all things in existence, have the time or interest to care about private, consensual sexual acts in any form?

[athrock]

The Church might as well be calling him Quasimodo, and making him live in the bell tower, but instead of being infuriated and indignant, the OP is grateful to this church for accepting him despite his "damaged" condition, and happy to forfeit his natural born right as a human to personal happiness of the fullest extent possible.  

This was somebody's self-worth, slowly and purposefully chipped away over many years, and he can't even see it.  Blind is right.  

Thank you very much for the kind words, but I'd like to focus on this passage in particular, because it made me realize something: is there a single other sin within christian doctrine that gets the kind of attention that homosexuality does?

Not today. And why is this? Because the gay community has made the topic unavoidable. So, the Catholic Church sides with the homosexual as a person in need of love, support, etc, but opposes the acts of homosexuality which are intrinsically evil.

But 50 years ago, the Church was siding with the Black community and the Civil Rights movement. It was the same principle at work then as now: the dignity of the individual person was to be upheld.

So, we have a gay catholic living a life of celibacy, which is what the church suggests for gay people... and doesn't that right away strike you as strange? Isn't the christian position that everyone is fundamentally and unavoidably sinful, and that the only way to heaven is to accept Jesus as a sacrifice in recompense to those sins, that you do have and cannot avoid otherwise? Doesn't Catholicism specifically provide confessionals for the purpose of confessing and redressing sins somewhat?

So if the tenets of the church overall are that people will sin, there's nothing that can be done about that, and that the crucifixion is sufficient to erase those sins before god, and if the Catholic church specifically provides a method for dealing with those sins actively committed during the week, which is an implicit acknowledgement that their congregants are sinning, and if all sins are equal before god... why is it that homosexuality gets singled out for special attention, with this demand for celibacy? Couldn't a gay person with an active sex life accept Jesus, go to confession, and be on equal ground in terms of sins as every other christian?

Why do gays need to make extra special preparations to avoid sin, when it's treated as inevitable in every other case?

You fundamentally misunderstand the nature and role of confession. This is why I said you do not know Catholicism.

If a person goes to confession and admits to living with his girlfriend and is unwilling to stop having sex with her, the priest may withhold absolution. Why? Because the person is not committed to CHANGE, to avoiding sin in the future. He is saying, "Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. I'll be sinning again later tonight because I'm not will to give up my sin, but I want to be forgiven anyhow."

Would any of you forgive your own children whose confession and apology for some transgression was so obviously insincere? Hardly.

Similarly, the person who is sexually active in a committed homosexual relationship cannot be forgiven by the Church because there must be the firm intent to avoid the sin in the future. This obviously does not exist within the context of gay marriage or most homosexual relationships. But heterosexuals who are sinning outside of marriage are held to the same standard.

The heterosexual couple can correct this problem by:

1. Living separately and chastely
2. Living jointly and chastely
3. Getting married.

The homosexual couple may choose the first of these two options, but the third is simply not possible because a same-sex couple cannot reproduce. Thus, while the unitive aspect of sexuality might be met, the procreative is not.

[LadyForCamus]

BIB: I'd say thats an appeal to authority.

And how do you know Esquilax doesn't spend his time studying the same things.

You are being incredibly condescending and wonder why people are the way they are with you.

I'm not appealing to authority; I'm saying that one footballer is better than another.

WLC is a professional philosopher and apologist. Esquilax is not even an amateur; she's an internet forum member with an inflated opinion of her own knowledge of philosophy and/or debate skills.

Lol, oh give me a break athrock. How dare you even go near the topic of debate skills when yours consist of: "the bible said so. Therefore it's true!" as an answer to everything. I agree with Divinity. I don't think you are here to engage in any rational discourse.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

What a bizarre and antiquated belief system.

How very silly.

[athrock]

I'm starting to think that athrock isn't even worth responding to.  He's not looking for discussion.  He's looking to look down his nose at everyone and say how sinful everyone is and spread his message of hate.  He's just another fucking asshole who gets his orgasms from the idea that people who disagree with him will burn in hell.  A torture fetishist who lacks manners and common sense as well as common decency.

[Pat Mustard]

Up yours, you little piece of shit. The catholic church as an organisation hates gays with the same passion that it used hate moriscoes. The only reason it isn't out burning gay people like it used burn the moriscoes is that it knows if it tried that today it would be fucked out of every civilised country there is.

Instead it is a lot more insidious, trying to demonise gay people on the sly, trying to make them hate themselves and trying to do them in without outright bringing out the torches and pitchforks. And you, as a gay person (if you are not lying about this as you have done with so many other things) are betraying every other single gay person in the world by defending that piece of shit organisation.

When did you leave the Catholic Church, CD? How old were you?

None of your fucking business, shitstain. But I'll tell you this, I left the church for perfectly good and cogent reasons, I left it because I grew up and started thinking for myself, not letting others dictate to me and do me down like they've done to you.