Religious Liberty?

[Ravenshire]

I have to say I'm divided on this issue.  It's a little ironic that a thread about liberty is mostly people saying what Christians shouldn't be allowed to do-- because it infringes on other people's liberties.  On the other hand-- the social backlash against Christian bullshit and institutions is probably evidence of social evolution in action.

I reckon at this point Christians are free to look like fucking morons, and to gradually slip into the dark night of obsoletism.  The specific details of what they can/can't get away with while they ride that slippery slide probably don't matter that much.

No one is saying what christers should or shouldn't do. They're saying that christers shouldn't use their businesses to trample others. Is that really so hard to figure out?!? I could give two shits for what the CEO of the fucking Hobby Lobby believes, until he pushes those personal beliefs down the food chain to those he employs.

[SteelCurtain]

I find the argument that "the market will take care of it" -- namely that a business that discriminates against gays will fail-- to be woefully short sighted. In some communities, yes, that will happen.

In most communities in the South, that business will prosper. Christians will rally around the business. Which is all fine and good, but as a civilized society marching towards progress, we cannot allow the majority to decide on the rights of the minority. It doesn't work, especially when allowing the minority equal rights reins in the majority's privilege.

If we allowed the market to prevail, it would have been 20 years further on until blacks would have been allowed in some establishments. There would still be private golf clubs that African Americans couldn't apply to become members. There would still be lunch counters in the South that wouldn't allow ethnic people to eat. The money of anyone wearing a turban in parts of this country right now would be no good. People can come up with a "compelling religious reason" why doing business with a Muslim is against their faith.

If you open your business to the public, you do not get to choose who you serve. You can refuse to bid on contracts, you can refuse to perform certain services for all of your patrons.

If you sell cakes, you cannot choose not to sell a cake to a gay person because they're gay. I have been to a lot of weddings. Only once was the person who baked the cake intimately involved with the ceremony, and that was because she was a close friend of the bride.

[robvalue]

I totally agree.

If we let businesses just do whatever the fuck they wanted, many might flip out and bankrupt themselves through discrimination, but in some areas the populace might be all aboard. At that point, all shops can suddenly start refusing the minorities in the area en masse and making their lives miserable, with little loss of earnings.

[Brian37]

...what are you going to do as a business owner when more and more people cant afford what you sell?

I would find ways to produce at less cost. If I didn't buy from the most economical sources I would have to pass that cost on to my customers. They are the disabled. I do everything I can to make my products affordable to the population I serve and who mostly live on a fixed incomes.

You can ride in first class all you want, but still the same plane we all ride on dipshit. If the airline CEO doesn't give a fuck about mechanic's pay and something goes wrong at 40,000 feet, you are just as fucked as the people in coach.

Nope sorry dipshit, you don't get to dictate pay to workers, it is a two way street, "passing the cost down to the consumer" is just fucking blackmail.

I gave you a way to protect your feedback loop and so did Nick Hanauer. If you'd pull your head out of your fucking ass and stop making this about you as an individual, you'd see we are NOT out to get you, but telling you the 99% matter, and the more you fuck them over long term, eventually it will hurt you as well.

[Joods]

No one owes you jobs, douchebags.

No one owes you their time and dedication to work for your shitty company. Dickbag.

[Joods]

...what are you going to do as a business owner when more and more people cant afford what you sell?

I would find ways to produce at less cost. If I didn't buy from the most economical sources I would have to pass that cost on to my customers. They are the disabled. I do everything I can to make my products affordable to the population I serve and who mostly live on a fixed incomes.

Translation: I would find another country who would be willing to pay workers less money than the mere pennies those currently making my products are paid now because goddammit I need to maintain my middle class lifestyle!

[Brian37]

I would find ways to produce at less cost. If I didn't buy from the most economical sources I would have to pass that cost on to my customers. They are the disabled. I do everything I can to make my products affordable to the population I serve and who mostly live on a fixed incomes.

Translation: I would find another country who would be willing to pay workers less money than the mere pennies those currently making my products are paid now because goddammit I need to maintain my middle class lifestyle!

Yep, that is the corporate welfare mentality. Same "fuck you" mentality that allowed the coal mine scams to operate legally in West Virginia. Buy up all the town property, pay in company script, and by the time the under paid workers paid their bills, they had nothing or were in dept. Keep them poor and desperate you can maximize profits and keep labor costs down.

An he doesn't even see how that hurts the labor he'd outsource the jobs too. If we want more global stability then we should want the wages of workers worldwide to go up. We cannot simply have global competition be a race for cheap labor.

[Joods]

He's already outsourcing jobs. He admitted that early on in this thread. He doesn't want to comply with federal, state and local regs. He's probably one of those who complains about people being on welfare or food stamps yet, he fails to understand why his mentality is part of the problem.

[Brian37]

He's already outsourcing jobs. He admitted that early on in this thread. He doesn't want to comply with federal, state and local regs. He's probably one of those who complains about people being on welfare or food stamps yet, he fails to understand why his mentality is part of the problem.

This is the problem with all economic ideology, left or right. It still boils down to ecosystems. You get enough in a population that lack resources, it will always cause unrest. The argument of where a revolution will end up is a bullshit argument. Revolutions have all sorts of excuses to go from a more open system to a more closed system, but it still boils down to access to resources.

This is why idiots don't understand why I don't like Che who lead to Cuba and don't like Ayn Rand either. Nothing to me as far as economics is open vs closed markets. I view it as room for everyone, based on anti monopoly concepts with social voting where no one sect of society can gain a monopoly. Inequity has to exist, but not to the degree it is now. Chad suffers from selection bias and sample rate error the same way theists use the word "miracle". He may personally pay well, but most businesses collectively as a larger sample are not.

Chad has been feed the bullshit idea that he did it all himself and that is literally physically impossible. If an individual could do that, then you should be able to live on an island by yourself and do the same thing with no other human help.

[bennyboy]

No one is saying what christers should or shouldn't do. They're saying that christers shouldn't use their businesses to trample others.

First of all, these two sentences aren't logically consistent. The second directly contradicts the first.

Second, the word "trample" is too biased. There are certainly disagreements about what constitutes liberty and what constitutes oppression, for example, but when you use demonizing language like that, you're more likely to bolster religious positions than to minimize them.

Is that really so hard to figure out?!? I could give two shits for what the CEO of the fucking Hobby Lobby believes, until he pushes those personal beliefs down the food chain to those he employs.

The problem isn't what the employees can or cannot do. The management are not trying to prevent staff from contraceptive health care-- they are saying they don't want to be complicit in those parts of health care which go against their own beliefs.