Reflections on Nothing.

[Jehanne]

Have you tried learning a bit more about big bang cosmology? I am currently listening to Sean Carroll, and there's quite a bit of physics that goes on with the 'something from nothing' question. Additionally, you may find it difficult for 2+2 to equal something other than 4, but there are other concepts and physical laws that may be different.

I don't deny that, not at all.  Even if the multiverse exists (and, I think that it does), then the other universes will be governed by mathematical equations and not by magic, which is what a Creator god could certainly do.  Even in those universes (even if they are devoid of intelligent life), 2 + 2 = 4 will still be a true statement.

[Jehanne]

To OP: do some research on symmetry breaking.  It gives a good explanation on why there is something rather than nothing.  There is a documentary on curiositystream.com (netflix for documentaries) called the ultimate formula and it explains the concept pretty well to the non-mathematician (like me).

Yeah, I agree, 100%!  My OP was really a slam against WLC, who acts like "nothing" can exist, "in theory", and so, the alternative is, "god exists, and god 'did it'".  WLC's position is just absurd; he would have to claim that god could make 2 + 2 equal to something other than 4, which is absurd.  But, if foundations of arthritic are immutable (hence, eternal), then all of "higher" mathematics follows from that; algebra is, after all, just "arithmetic with letters."  Calculus is adding infinitesimals, and finding instantaneous rates of change for different sets of numbers who have relationships to each other (functions).  So, if we can add, we can take derivatives, do integrations, etc., which is the basis of all mathematical physics.  All of that work leads to things like symmetry breaking, and while most of that is beyond my abilities, others, fortunately, understand it, and there is no need appeal to some sort of "higher power" any more than we need to make an equivalent appeal as to why we can add two numbers together.

[Jehanne]

What's that about numbers and mathematics existing outside of reality?

That the Universe follows mathematical equations at its fundamental level is the basis of all reality.  The alternative is magic, a Universe which is governed by no physical laws.  A Universe which simply exists absent any creator god would have to be governed by mathematics (what would be the alternative?); a created Universe, on the other hand, could be governed by magic (think of Dragon Ball Z or Winx Club.)

[Excited Penguin]

What's that about numbers and mathematics existing outside of reality?

That the Universe follows mathematical equations at its fundamental level is the basis of all reality.  The alternative is magic, a Universe which is governed by no physical laws.  A Universe which simply exists absent any creator god would have to be governed by mathematics (what would be the alternative?); a created Universe, on the other hand, could be governed by magic (think of Dragon Ball Z or Winx Club.)

Mathematics are a product of the human mind, not the other way around. I don't think you mean what I think you mean, so I won't press this any further, but do consider putting it differently.

[Alex K]

Where do you think gold came from?

It came from a supernova explosion of a star; point is that the star was brewing hydrogen into helium from millions to billions of years prior to that.

what an odd question though

[Jehanne]

That the Universe follows mathematical equations at its fundamental level is the basis of all reality.  The alternative is magic, a Universe which is governed by no physical laws.  A Universe which simply exists absent any creator god would have to be governed by mathematics (what would be the alternative?); a created Universe, on the other hand, could be governed by magic (think of Dragon Ball Z or Winx Club.)

Mathematics are a product of the human mind, not the other way around. I don't think you mean what I think you mean, so I won't press this any further, but do consider putting it differently.

I have no idea how you can say this.  In a right triangle, does the square of the hypotenuse equal the sums of the squares of its two sides?  Is that true or not?  And, if you say that such is only a "product of the human mind," when did this truth (if, it is, true) come into being?  Are you saying that the planets of our solar system started going around the Sun in ellipses only after Kepler discovered those orbits?  If so, what were the planets doing prior to Kepler & Galileo?

[ignoramus]

Holy shit!

The triangle formula, as with all others is just a human observation. Humans love simplifying nature into simple formulas as much as possible. We find patterns in everything.

E=mc2

A simple formula, right. It took a genius to simplify the seemingly complex processes happening at an atomic level into a very simple formula. Not sure what you're getting at?

As stated earlier, nobody creates and polices natural laws. We just discover them. We like to quantify nature.
Because unlike some, numbers are reliable, repeatable and do not lie.

[undoctrinated]

Mathematics are a product of the human mind, not the other way around. I don't think you mean what I think you mean, so I won't press this any further, but do consider putting it differently.

I have no idea how you can say this.  In a right triangle, does the square of the hypotenuse equal the sums of the squares of its two sides?  Is that true or not?  And, if you say that such is only a "product of the human mind," when did this truth (if, it is, true) come into being?  Are you saying that the planets of our solar system started going around the Sun in ellipses only after Kepler discovered those orbits?  If so, what were the planets doing prior to Kepler & Galileo?

Well interesting thought. Its been proven on a quantum level that reality doesn't exist until its measured. Bob

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http://www.sciencealert.com/reality-does...t-confirms

[Excited Penguin]

Mathematics are a product of the human mind, not the other way around. I don't think you mean what I think you mean, so I won't press this any further, but do consider putting it differently.

I have no idea how you can say this.  In a right triangle, does the square of the hypotenuse equal the sums of the squares of its two sides?  Is that true or not?  And, if you say that such is only a "product of the human mind," when did this truth (if, it is, true) come into being?  Are you saying that the planets of our solar system started going around the Sun in ellipses only after Kepler discovered those orbits?  If so, what were the planets doing prior to Kepler & Galileo?

I have no idea how you can say this.  

Because our knowledge of the world is imperfect and your claim that mathematics is metaphysical in nature is as old as Ancient Greek Philosophy and it has found no justification in science, as far as I know.

In a right triangle, does the square of the hypotenuse equal the sums of the squares of its two sides? Is that true or not?

I don't know.

And, if you say that such is only a "product of the human mind," when did this truth (if, it is, true) come into being? 

When the first brain started thinking about it.

Are you saying that the planets of our solar system started going around the Sun in ellipses only after Kepler discovered those orbits?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. To claim otherwise is illogical.

 If so, what were the planets doing prior to Kepler & Galileo?

They "did" whatever we thought they were doing. Their motions as we currently understand them weren't discovered as yet.

[Angrboda]

Mathematics are a product of the human mind, not the other way around. I don't think you mean what I think you mean, so I won't press this any further, but do consider putting it differently.

I have no idea how you can say this.  In a right triangle, does the square of the hypotenuse equal the sums of the squares of its two sides?  Is that true or not?  And, if you say that such is only a "product of the human mind," when did this truth (if, it is, true) come into being?  Are you saying that the planets of our solar system started going around the Sun in ellipses only after Kepler discovered those orbits?  If so, what were the planets doing prior to Kepler & Galileo?

Before they were concepts in the mind of a thinking being they were non-facts. They didn't exist and the relationship which we express as an ellipse was just a peculiar motion. Numbers and mathematical truths may be said to exist in a figurative sense, but it's debatable whether they have any sort of transcendent existence. Since your whole argument depends upon a debatable premise, it's not very persuasive as an argument.