My views on objective morality

[Mister Agenda]

I would like to remind all you sanctimonious assholes who showed up to point the finger after the action is over that Lady and I are not the only people behind this disaster with CL, and we didn't start the fire either. It was one of your own, Lucky (you named us exclusively), who pushed CL over the edge with his words, and I will never forget them: "You are a horrible, horrible person". That was Rhythm, who has been quiet through today. I believe his intent was good, but I know that I would not have used words like that with CL, and that actually says something because I know I'm not very kind. While I didn't like the words that were used, they could not be opposed while still pursuing the point that the problem of evil makes believers perverse in their morality. After Rhythm quietly bowed out, Lady and I were left to try and explain to CL, while she was crying over what he had called her, the point which was intended, but she could not be reached. Maybe we should have just let it go, but nobody wants to quit on hard feelings, and I thought we had almost made some progress with her - just couldn't slow down the momentum.

I'm taking some time to reflect on all that went down here, but yeah, let's remember: Rob called her a rape apologist, Benny said people here only defend her because her boobs are big, and rhythm told her to fuck off.  If any mod action is warranted I feel it wholly unfair that hanky and I alone should have to shoulder that responsibility.

I tend to agree...but some people had left off and you two were among those still going after her. When you come across someone being beaten, you step in, even if someone else started the beating.

[brewer]

Glad the myth of the angry atheist has been debunked.

[Losty]

I'm taking some time to reflect on all that went down here, but yeah, let's remember: Rob called her a rape apologist, Benny said people here only defend her because her boobs are big, and rhythm told her to fuck off.  If any mod action is warranted I feel it wholly unfair that hanky and I alone should have to shoulder that responsibility.

I tend to agree...but some people had left off and you two were among those still going after her. When you come across someone being beaten, you step in, even if someone else started the beating.

Oh please, LFC is not responsible for anyone on this forum but herself and she has been nothing but respectful in the midst of a very heated debate.

[Mister Agenda]

Even with objective morality, it is possible to have conditions in which you can't have one good without allowing a greater evil. That is the position CL thinks God is in, if I'm understanding her right. I'm pretty sure the Catholic version of God's omnipotence doesn't include overcoming paradoxes. God can't make a square a circle without making it 'not a square'.  I'm sure CL accepts the leg of theodicy that says God is omnibenevolent, probably the 'maximally benevolent' version. It therefore follows that God cannot, due to his nature, do anything in a given situation that is not the maximally benevolent thing. That means in every situation where it might appear that God is not doing so, it is because we do not have all the information; which God, in his omniscience, does.

Read what you just quoted me saying.  CL has claimed that rape is objectively evil.  However, CL and you are implying that there are some cases where allowing a rape is necessary because it serves the greater good.  So in that case, rape is in fact NOT objectively evil: it would be evil not to allow the rape.

Objective does not mean 'absolute'. Two things can be objectively evil, and one of them can objectively be more evil than the other.

[Mister Agenda]

I posted some things that offended CL before she left. I take responsibility for it. The people that have been taking the heat are not the only ones that CL felt hurt by. I was one of them. Actually, I was not as patient as Lady for Camus or Hanky. I was emotional. This topic is a trigger to me. It hits some of my nerves that I try to keep hidden. I spoke as I would have to any other theist given the topic at hand.

When I saw how it hurt me to even talk about it, and that she was also hurt, I realized this was not something that would end well, if I kept going. I said I'd leave, made another post to reply to something she said, and someone reminded me that I said I would leave, so I should leave. They were right. So, I stopped posting. 

I promised I wouldn't come back, but I don't think it's right for others to be getting all the blame. I just came here to say I'm around, in case spankings need to be thrown my way. I'm owning up to my part. I still think the way I do, though. I'll be around in case I'm needed for sitting in a corner, or stuff.

In awe of your class.

[Thumpalumpacus]

That's all I really ask for from a person, online or in real-life -- be decent.  I don't care what you believe, I'll be happy to discuss it if you can do so politely, and so long as those conditions are met you will receive all the courtesy you can ask for and then some.

Hmmm...the word "cuntmuffin" comes to mind. [emoji13]  But in your defense, I'm fairly certain he deserved it.

I make change in the coin tendered. I prefer courteous discussion, but let's face it: I'm an asshole, at times. It's part of me that I'm working on changing. But I don't answer rudeness with courtesy; I don't reward behavior I don't like and won't take.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Oh shit, now Thumper has taken down his avatar!  Was it something I said???

I didn't take it down, not sure why you're not seeing it. It's still the revolving yin-yang.

[bennyboy]

Objective does not mean 'absolute'. Two things can be objectively evil, and one of them can objectively be more evil than the other.

I don't think so. In the case of a rape allowed by God, it must by definition of God be serving a greater good. It is therefore an act which is allowed with both the intent and the effect of doing good. It is a good act.

For something to be called objectively evil, it would have to be evil regardless of context. And I don't think there's any evil, no matter how much we despise it, that cannot be thought of as good given the right (albeit highly unlikely) context.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I say morality is subjective because I think that claiming that something is morally good or bad, etc., depends on one's attitude towards that thing. It is not a claim about the properties of the thing itself, independent of what anyone feels about it. So, although I maintain that torturing someone for fun is always wrong, I do not mean by that that there is a fact about the action of torturing someone that makes it wrong - such that one could determine by examining the action itself that it really is wrong, and that anyone who disagrees is making a factual mistake. In saying it is always wrong, I am merely expressing my complete disapproval of it.

If I'm reading you correctly, what you're delineating is the difference between objective morality and absolute morality. You hold that torturing someone for fun is absolutely wrong, but that isn't a property that anyone can see in the action itself. Is that a fair restatement of your view?

I've held, and hold, that people clutter their thinking when they confuse absolutel morality with objective morality, and relative morality with subjective morality. The first two terms address the action itself, while the latter two address viewpoints and circumstances surrounding the act.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

I'm taking some time to reflect on all that went down here, but yeah, let's remember: Rob called her a rape apologist, Benny said people here only defend her because her boobs are big, and rhythm told her to fuck off.  If any mod action is warranted I feel it wholly unfair that hanky and I alone should have to shoulder that responsibility.

I tend to agree...but some people had left off and you two were among those still going after her. When you come across someone being beaten, you step in, even if someone else started the beating.

As atheists, some of us are much better at creating strawmen than the theists - CL was NOT being beaten, so knock it off with that bullshit already, Green Lightbulb! Just because it's ugly and somebody is crying doesn't mean there's a good reason for it, and we were just trying to make her understand why one like Rythm would say what really was a bit harsh, although in a very important way true.