Necessary Thing

[Ignorant]

Fair enough. Do we have any way of telling whether or not some thing's existence is non-necessary (i.e. contingent or conditioned upon some other thing)?

I say to you what I say to anyone else going there. We don't know how the universe works to it's last detail. We also don't know how life came to be, at this point. We know a lot more than we knew a century ago and, given another century, we will know even more.

What you're doing is filling the gap with your god. You're uncomfotable with not knowing anything and so there's a gap to fill. You do that with your god as the filler. It's called God of the gap fallacy, actually. It's on the same lines as some caveman staring up to the sun and the moon, not understanding them and calling them god. So, I'm used to call that caveman behavior.

Which gap are you referring to, and when did I fill it with god? Can you point it out so I can correct it in my future behavior?

So far, the only time I have mentioned god in this thread is to mention to people that I do not intend to use this thread as a future proof of god.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

*sigh*

I had just closed this thread, thinking no more replies were forthcoming.

This is what we mean by "playing coy". It strongly appears to us that you're one of the passive-aggressive types who come here and pretend they're being misunderstood at every point... even though they barely make a point, so we're forced to guess where they're going with it.

The arguments you appear to be laying down have been put to us innumerable (well, someone probably could, but I won't count them!) times, and they lead to one of the "god of the gaps" arguments. In this particular case, it's the one we see the most, the "first cause" argument, in which it is claimed (paraphrasing) "if everything needs to come into being, then there must be something that made it come into being, ergo Universal Creator God YHWH/Jehovah of the Hebrews of Bronze Age Canaan".

Edit to Add: It's a GotG argument because we don't know nearly enough about the physics involved to begin a philosophical argument; anything we'd kick around on the subject would be sophistry at best, or simply pure gibberish. But, as I said above, this doesn't stop theists from trying to assert it as reality because (they think) it favors their God hypothesis.

[Ignorant]

The arguments you appear to be laying down have been put to us innumerable (well, someone probably could, but I won't count them!) times, and they lead to one of the "god of the gaps" arguments. In this particular case, it's the one we see the most, the "first cause" argument, in which it is claimed (paraphrasing) "if everything needs to come into being, then there must be something that made it come into being, ergo Universal Creator God YHWH/Jehovah of the Hebrews of Bronze Age Canaan".

Can you show me where I put forth this argument? Any follow-up questions I ask are for clarification sake. I want to make sure I've understood people correctly.

I mean... are my questions/responses really that disturbing to you? I know full well that even if there WERE a necessary thing and we could verify its existence, that in itself doesn't mean god exists. Any rational person who seriously considers it must conclude that. How many times do I have to say that before I can explore this philosophical topic in this philosophy thread in my own way?

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Can you show me where I put forth this argument? Any follow-up questions I ask are for clarification sake. I want to make sure I've understood people correctly.

I mean... are my questions/responses really that disturbing to you? I know full well that even if there WERE a necessary thing and we could verify its existence, that in itself doesn't mean god exists. Any rational person who seriously considers it must conclude that. How many times do I have to say that before I can explore this philosophical topic in this philosophy thread in my own way?

That's the "playing coy" part. No one is saying that you have. It's simply that you're getting the reaction you do because so many have done so in the past.

If that's your actual position (I hope!), then I hope you stick around until those irrational people show up, so you can help us explain it to them. It's much more effective coming from a fellow believer than from an atheist, whom they are taught to believe is simply "misguided by Satan" (or "hatred of God", or whatever).

Edit to Add: We must ask your forgiveness for our skeptical/suspicious nature, on these topics. Burned by theists toooooo many times. It's not your fault, and I will endeavor not to hold their actions against you. We simply suspect it whenever we see the "playing coy" (where did I say that!?!), after it was strongly implied at the least, approach.

[Ignorant]

It strongly appears to us that you're one of the passive-aggressive types who come here and pretend they're being misunderstood at every point... even though they barely make a point, so we're forced to guess where they're going with it.

Please help me. What things have I said provide you with the strong appearance that I am of this type?

Look, I know there are millions of ignorant Christians on the internet who have time and time again failed to see their own logical errors and fallacies even when most of you have patiently and fairly pointed them out. I know that the same arguments get poorly launched at you over and over again. I am not saying you should not be frustrated or suspicious of theists coming at you all guns blazing shooting nothing but blanks, but I have no interest in doing that. Cosmological arguments do not prove that god exists, but the questions they raise are interesting to me. If they aren't interesting to you, then why are you reading this thread?

Edit: Thanks for your post above. When I ask "where did I say that?", it is precisely because I am trying so hard to avoid the semblance of a god argument that I want to correct any failure on my part. Like I said, I know its a reaction from past experiences, and I don't mind that, it makes a lot of sense. But if you can help show me where it seems to be showing up in my words, I'd be grateful

[TheRocketSurgeon]

It strongly appears to us that you're one of the passive-aggressive types who come here and pretend they're being misunderstood at every point... even though they barely make a point, so we're forced to guess where they're going with it.

Please help me. What things have I said provide you with the strong appearance that I am of this type?

Look, I know there are millions of ignorant Christians on the internet who have time and time again failed to see their own logical errors and fallacies even when most of you have patiently and fairly pointed them out. I know that the same arguments get poorly launched at you over and over again. I am not saying you should not be frustrated or suspicious of theists coming at you all guns blazing shooting nothing but blanks, but I have no interest in doing that. Cosmological arguments do not prove that god exists, but the questions they raise are interesting to me. If they aren't interesting to you, then why are you reading this thread?

Because I, too, find them interesting. And you seem like a smart and honest theist. Those are rare and valuable, around here. 

The reason it is suspicious is simple: the questions you are asking are almost always a lead-up to the Big Reveal™, in which we get back to regurgitated Aquinas. Bleh.

Edit to Add: I am telling you all these things by way of helping you fit in better, and more quickly, by avoiding a common pitfall. That's all!

[abaris]

Please help me. What things have I said provide you with the strong appearance that I am of this type?

Maybe, as I said yesterday, say what you're actually aiming at. What's your point? Playing the oracle of Delphy won't gain you any sympathies.

[Ignorant]

Maybe, as I said yesterday, say what you're actually aiming at. What's your point? Playing the oracle of Delphy won't gain you any sympathies.

My point is to learn more about topics that interest me from people who most likely have a different perspective than me.

[abaris]

My point is to learn more about topics that interest me from people who most likely have a different perspective than me.

With posting nonsensical oneliners? Way to go. man.

[Ignorant]

With posting nonsensical oneliners? Way to go. man.

Well I am sorry you feel that way about my posts. Your [edit] continued constructive criticism will always be welcome.