Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
(March 29, 2009 at 3:44 pm)Edward Wrote: Actually, yes. Only you haven't factored far enough. If a universe has drug addiction, a universe must be conscious, if a universe is conscious, it must have intelligence, if a universe has intelligence, it must be intelligent. An intelligent universe is what we call God.
And no, you couldn't put any arbitrary noun in place of God. I'm not trying to prove the universe is an orange. An arbitrary noun would be like putting any old number after the = sign in a given equation.
Hmm.
My grandad is dead, he no longer exists.
The universe displays nonexistence, therefore the universe is nonexistant.
If you counter by saying "but he was once alive so therefore their was intelligence" then my next point would be as follows: if we nuke the planet to pieces and destroy all life on it (assuming there is no life elswhere) have we killed god?
Quote:The truth of that condition rests on the definition of your grandfather.
Indeed. My father is also deceased.We cremated him and dropped his ashes into the river according to his wishes. Bits of dad floated away on the wind. Today dad is part of the river,perhaps some fish and people who have eaten the fish. Bits of him may be giving someone who breathed him in lung cancer.
The PERSON who was my father ceased to exist several years before his body died. He had arteriosclerosis,which destroyed parts of his brain.That meant his memory,his inhibitions,and his personality. It left a shell,who knew no one and who was nasty. I would go to see him and get " Who are you? Fuck off and don't come back!". I would go home and cry.So I stopped going, and had not seen the shell for two years when it finally stopped working completely.I was relieved.
(March 29, 2009 at 6:59 pm)padraic Wrote: The PERSON who was my father ceased to exist several years before his body died. He had arteriosclerosis,which destroyed parts of his brain.That meant his memory,his inhibitions,and his personality. It left a shell,who knew no one and who was nasty. I would go to see him and get " Who are you? Fuck off and don't come back!". I would go home and cry.So I stopped going, and had not seen the shell for two years when it finally stopped working completely.I was relieved.
How old were you?
I had an uncle like that (well similar); he was the nicest man you could ever meet (kind, good humoured. loving) but he had a stroke and became vicious, vindictive and very nasty to his wife ... quite clearly a very different personality to his former one Now, if the soul (as has been claimed) is the seat of personality & emotion, I would like to know which personality he now has and why.
Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings! Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!
(March 29, 2009 at 4:54 pm)Edward Wrote: Good point. If there is you and an apple in an infinite void, and you die, what happens to the apple? Remember: it's an infinite void, you're the only one in existence besides the apple, and then you die. What happens to the apple?
It's like that saying "if a tree fell over in the wood and no one heard it, would it still make a sound?".
But that is to use the argument that god only exists in our minds. If he exists independent of ourselves, then of course he would go on existing should we stupidly decide to find out once and for all if god were real. However, I think if we all died, god would die with us.
"I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability." Oscar Wilde
My Blog | Why I Don't Believe in God
(March 29, 2009 at 4:54 pm)Edward Wrote: Show one instance of non-existence. Of course, you can't, that would be absurd. Everything that is has a form of existence. Again, it's how you define it.
Would it be fair to say that a sample of carbon shows complete non-existence of curium? Curium does not exist within the sample and is therefore non-existant upon it. The universe displays non-existance; therefore the universe is non-existant. Of course not! The universe displays non-existance; therefore the universe displays non-existance. It also displays existance. It displays intelligence (humans) and displays non-intelligence (my sample of carbon). For any one trait you can choose, the opposite is true. Quite simply, your point logically should say "The universe displays intelligence in some places and non-intelligence in others. From these premises the universe cannot be defined as intelligent or non-intelligent, merely the stadium in which intelligence and non-intelligence are bred".
Quote:Good point. If there is you and an apple in an infinite void, and you die, what happens to the apple? Remember: it's an infinite void, you're the only one in existence besides the apple, and then you die. What happens to the apple?
You've changed the criteria. Initially you said a universe which displays intelligence is intelligent hence God. By destroying the intelligence, one would have destroyed the criteria by which we define the universe as a god. The new statement would be "the universe does not display intelligence. Therefore..."
But in your apple example, you suppose the apple to be seperate from the human, which wasn't the case with intelligence. Intelligence exists only within living creatures and therefore by destroying them, intelligence as a whole must go with them. The apple is not a part of the human, so if you destroy the human the apple remains.
I've hidden my points because I really don't feel anybody should have to read through the repetitive drivel i'm coming out with. To sum up everything in that text, I outright deny the claim that the universe in and of itself is an intelligent agent- it merely contains agents which in and of themselves are intelligent. The universe may be described as intelligent in parts, but not as a whole. I have a foot, but I am not a foot. Parts of me display foot-like properties (2 parts to be precise) but they do not constitute the entirety of "me". I am not a foot. Of course, I could say that the majority of my parts are not intelligent, and therefore "I" am not intelligent- only parts of me are. That is fine, and could lead into a discussion of self-perception, but it isn't necessary in this argument.
Oh that is bullshit and you know it. You needed to play the martyr so badly you had to resort to ad homs the second you admitted being a theist and knowing full well you were going to be disruptive and would get warned.
If this is your way of honest debate, then I say good riddance to your disingenuous pile of crap.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
(March 30, 2009 at 3:36 pm)Edward Wrote: Since the...ahem...leadership in the forum has seen fit to ban my postings until they approve them, I can't respond to any more posts, because I can't waste the time writing only to have what I wrote deleted. I don't even know if this message will get through. So, I'm out.
So much for "freethinking" atheists. This is exactly how the Christians behave.
Actually you called another forum member (me as it happens) names in open forum and that, until we are confident you won't behave in such a fashion again, remains the SOLE reason why your posts are moderated.
Personally I'd suggest you accept that actions have consequences and just grow up.
Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings! Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!
This is ridiculous and no one is falling for your ruse. Of course your prediction will come to fruition if you act in the manor you have chosen to act. I wouldn't be surprised to find you posting other such threads on other atheist forums trying to incite a response from their respective moderation teams. I also wouldn't be surprised to find a list maintained by yourself of all the atheist forums you've been "repressed" on. Though I wouldn't put money on the latter.
(March 30, 2009 at 3:36 pm)Edward Wrote: Sorry folks,
Since the...ahem...leadership in the forum has seen fit to ban my postings until they approve them, I can't respond to any more posts, because I can't waste the time writing only to have. what I wrote deleted. I don't even know if this message will get through. So, I'm out.
So much for "freethinking" atheists. This is exactly how the Christians behave.
Baawwww, poor oppressed Christian can't spew his pathetic theistic drivel on an atheist forum. The injustice!
Seriously, I'm sick of theists playing the oppressed. Stop your Freudian projecting.
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin
odcast:: 