WWII

[Gawdzilla]

The Sherman was nicknamed The Ronson because of its penchant for "lighting up."

Still, if one needed to single out one system which made victory possible the Liberty ships would have to be right up there. Pieces of crap from the keel up but we built them faster than the u-boats could sink them and they had to expose themselves to ever more sophisticated radar/sonar in order to do so.

In a global war there are many players and many pieces. People have their favorites, of course, but the united effort was the real war-winner.

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Some of you might find this interesting. I had fun doing it.

[Zen Badger]

And that is why I point to the T-34 as the single most important factor in winning the war.

Not just because it was arguably the best tank in the world at the time, but also because of the industrial capacity that it was merely the tip of.

For every Tiger or Panther that the Germans fielded the Russians could produce eight T-34s.

And with that sort of equation happening the Germans were never going to win.

The Second front in the west was merely icing on the cake.

[Chris_Zee_Great]

I point to two major factors, weapon wise in winning the war.

T-34 Russian tanks and the U.S. aircraft carriers, or more importantly, the capacity to crank one out at a ratio the Japanese couldn't ever hope to match.

It still saddens me though when I hear someone give all the credit to us 'Mericans when it comes to winning the war. They fail to realize that WWII was over for the Axis in '43 when the Japanese were on the defensive thanks to Midway and Stalingrad proved to be the beginning of the end for the Third Reich. Sure, us Americans were all cool and did the producing, but damn, those crazy Red Army bastards sure did the dying.

[Gawdzilla]

I point to two major factors, weapon wise in winning the war.

T-34 Russian tanks and the U.S. aircraft carriers, or more importantly, the capacity to crank one out at a ratio the Japanese couldn't ever hope to match.

There were ~110 Allied flight decks in the Pacific at the end of the war. Japan never really had a chance.

It still saddens me though when I hear someone give all the credit to us 'Mericans when it comes to winning the war. They fail to realize that WWII was over for the Axis in '43 when the Japanese were on the defensive thanks to Midway and Stalingrad proved to be the beginning of the end for the Third Reich. Sure, us Americans were all cool and did the producing, but damn, those crazy Red Army bastards sure did the dying.

Every group tends to play up their part in the war. I spoke with a Russian professor in 1994 who told me that the Normandy invasion received one paragraph in Soviet history books on WWII. Local preference takes priority over reality all too often.

[Anomalocaris]

I hope our queen doesn't mind me offering something to think about.

I just saying the other night, if I could change one thing in history, it would be to have a Marshall Plan in 1919 instead of a rape at/Treaty of Versailles.

At the end of the first World War, the German people overthrew the Kaiser and the fledgling democracy asked for peace. With modern sensibilities, we can see the distinction between the actions of the Kaiser and the German people. A Marshall Plan at that time could have helped the German people assemble a functional democracy and wouldn't have ruined their economy with crippling war reparations. The rise of Hitler and the second world war could have been prevented and we would have had a more just and equitable peace after what might have been the first and only world war.

Actually, the German general staff saw there was no way to win the war, and perceived there could be no peace while kaiser stayed, so more are less informed the kaiser that the kaiser is kaiser no more. The kaiser took the hint and abdicated. The GermanS peoples didn't build any fledglin democracy. Wilson indicted there could be no peace unless German government was democratic, so the German general staff consented to the manufacture of an instant democracy to order. The Germans more or less believed that once they acquired a democratic form of government, accepted armistice terms, and retreat to pre-war borders, wilson's 14 points would apply go them as well as anyone else, and they would be accepted as a peer democracy without any prior guilt, and a equal partner in peace settlement negotiations. Instead peace terms were dictated to them at versailles as to a subjugated power, it stuck them with reparation, took away 1/5 of their territory, reduced their army to the size of a metropolitan police force, made them admit culpability for a war that other country started, and horror of horrors, disbanded the hallowed general staff itself! Here was the origin of the "stabbed in the back" myth.

On the other hand, the rape at Versailles is inevitable on account of the fact that it really was France that shouldered the bulk of the burden of fighting the Germans and made the largest sacrifice. The germans were absolute bastards in Belgium and occupied portions of France. They systematically burned historic libraries, dynamited French culture treasures out of spite, purposely dismentalled French factories to loot and to move to Germany, and destroyed French mines and other fixed assets as they retreated after the armistice to prevent French from using them after the war. The French wanted blood as reprisal. So let's not be to generous to the Germans with what are justifiable French deserts.

[DeistPaladin]

And be sure you're in the sixth Sherman, cos if you were in one of the first five, you're fucked.

Then perhaps it was appropriate that the tank design was named after a Union Civil War general who's "strategy" was to pour soldiers into the field until the other side ran got overwhelmed.

[reverendjeremiah]

And that is why I point to the T-34 as the single most important factor in winning the war.

Not just because it was arguably the best tank in the world at the time, but also because of the industrial capacity that it was merely the tip of.

For every Tiger or Panther that the Germans fielded the Russians could produce eight T-34s.

And with that sort of equation happening the Germans were never going to win.

The Second front in the west was merely icing on the cake.

From what I have heard, the Germans took their time to create high quality tanks, going above and beyond the bare minimum for their abilities. Perhaps it would be correct to assume that if Germany had the same type of tanks (tiger/panzer), but with the resources and work population of Russia, it might have been the other way around.

[Gawdzilla]

And be sure you're in the sixth Sherman, cos if you were in one of the first five, you're fucked.

Then perhaps it was appropriate that the tank design was named after a Union Civil War general who's "strategy" was to pour soldiers into the field until the other side ran got overwhelmed.

It was the British who named our tanks. The US Army didn't have official names for them.

[DeistPaladin]

Actually, the German general staff saw there was no way to win the war, and perceived there could be no peace while kaiser stayed, so more are less informed the kaiser that the kaiser is kaiser no more. The kaiser took the hint and abdicated. The GermanS peoples didn't build any fledglin democracy. Wilson indicted there could be no peace unless German government was democratic, so the German general staff consented to the manufacture of an instant democracy to order.

Hm, perhaps the history I studied in high school was wrong. My understanding was a socialist coalition was in charge when the war ended.

Then again, perhaps as an American, I'm too quick to ascribe a new democracy to "the people rising up and overthrowing the former dictator."

On the other hand, the rape at Versailles is inevitable on account of the fact that it really was France that shouldered the bulk of the burden of fighting the Germans and made the largest sacrifice. The germans were absolute bastards in Belgium and occupied portions of France. They systematically burned historic libraries, dynamited French culture treasures out of spite, purposely dismentalled French factories to loot and to move to Germany, and destroyed French mines and other fixed assets as they retreated after the armistice to prevent French from using them after the war. The French wanted blood as reprisal. So let's not be to generous to the Germans with what are justifiable French deserts.

Again, this is another side of history I hadn't seen before. I'd thought it was the human casualties of war which was the motive for the harsh treaty. Understandable but soldiers die in war so that alone seemed a hollow motive to the pillage of a defeated nation.

Still, the harsh punishment of a people for the war crimes of the generals doesn't seem like just deserts to me. It's the crippling reparations in particular that I would have changed (or reduced). It destroyed the German economy and created the desperation of a people. The loss of territory or some reparations go with the territory of losing a war but when reparations are projected stretch so heavily over two generations, that's over the top.

[Zen Badger]

[quote='Zen Badger' pid='132252' dateline='1303969493']
From what I have heard, the Germans took their time to create high quality tanks, going above and beyond the bare minimum for their abilities. Perhaps it would be correct to assume that if Germany had the same type of tanks (tiger/panzer), but with the resources and work population of Russia, it might have been the other way around.

Indeed, and the same went for aircraft, thousands of manhours were wasted on producing aircraft to a quality that wasn't required for warfare.

Russian AFV's were extremely crude by comparison, but SFW?(in the early part of Barbarossa some 34's went into combat minus a gunsight and the gunners had to sight through the gun barrel)

They had concentrated on the main requirements, mobility, protection, armament and most importantly, ease of production and maintenance.

I recall that Patton wanted to take on the USSR after defeating Germany in '45.

I think he would've received a very nasty shock.