Veganism - the other OTHER religion

[Zen Badger]

The fact is, we have evolved as omnivores and we require meat as well as vegetables.

They seem to have this idea that in nature animals live in some sort of happy co-existance where no really gets hurt.

One suspects they've watched "Bambi" one too many times.

It's an ethical choice, simple as that. Noone's denying that we're omnivores and that there's a great deal of cruelty in the wild, but that argument simply isn't comparing like with like.

We are animals, after all, and I personally think that we have a moral obligation to minimize the suffering done to our fellow creatures, no matter how lowly they are. As long as they suffer, I think it's wrong to turn a blind eye. I'm sure a philosopher like Shelly Kagan can be more eloquent about it, but it's a simple and fair ethical stance. Comparing it to a religion is rather insulting, especially when coherent arguments can be made by both sides, and I fucking hate it when people think veganism for moral reasons is some form of "extremism."

Could you please clarify whether you are against eating meat or cruelty to animals.(there is a difference)

If it is the latter then I agree with you, there is no need for animals to suffer in domestication or when they are slaughtered.
I take no pleasure in the death of an animal and I don't kill for sport.

But having said that I have no problem killing to eat. But I would make it quick and painless.

Something I might add that a animal in the wild would not grant. A lion does not care if the antelope it has just killed has suffered or not, and would not understand the concept if you tried to explain it.

But I like meat and I feel no guilt in eating it.

Just remember that all that is born is destined to die(usually in pain and suffering) and all life will be eaten by other life.

[reverendjeremiah]

Your argument sounds incredibly similar to those of Christian nutbags who try to associate Hitler with atheism. Do you associate all vegans with PETA? But then, you're only being half-serious, methinks.

If you took the time to read the entire thread, you would have the answer to that question. Obviously you havent even read the forst three posts I made on this thread. As far as the insults... I am well aware that the less meat a human consumes the more egotisitical and insulting he becomes. I have a friend of mine who is vegetarian with everything other than occasional eggs and cheese. He came across some PETA preists and when they found out he ate eggs they became furious with him, telling him to "evolve" with the snottiest look on their faces...how dare he eat eggs...he must a slope browed knuckle dragger.

PETA assclowns may be vegetarians, but they definitely suck on my meat every day.

P.S> Hitler was vegetarian. Hitler believed that a vegetarian diet could both alleviate personal health problems and bring about a spiritual regeneration.

Do you know that your Führer is a vegetarian, and that he does not eat meat because of his general attitude toward life and his love for the world of animals? Do you know that your Führer is an exemplary friend of animals, and even as a chancellor, he is not separated from the animals he has kept for years?...The Führer is an ardent opponent of any torture of animals, in particular vivisection, and has declared to terminate those conditions...thus fulfilling his role as the savior of animals, from continuous and nameless torments and pain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitle...etarianism

Read up on it. Hitler would have made a fine PETA leader.

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Good. I'm sure you'll enjoy this lovely piece.

You watch this and cringe. I watch this and start thinking of recipes.

That reminds me. I have new york strips in the fridge and I have to marinate them. Man those calfs look delicious. Hurry up and kill that cow so I can gut em.

You know whats even better? Having a fresh pig slaughtered on sight. gut it and cut it in half and put it on the smoker and invite a shitload of neighbors over for a cookout. Man, you want to talk about fresh crispy pork rinds (with meat on them) smoked on charcoal and mesquite? Fresh pulled barbeque is the shit..watch the children get the sauce all over their faces and then play hard with the other kids...life is great in the country. Hot damn, show me where the cold beer is and we are having one hell of a party.

Dont worry if you are squeemish, I will slaughter it, gut it AND cook it for you if you dont have the stomach to see the plumbing roll out onto the ground. About the only thing that effects me is the occasional smell. Just rub a very small pinch of Noxema on your upper lip and it will block that smell.

If I gut it, then I lay claim to the tenderloin..dont worry, I will share.

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A lot of secular humanists hold similar positions to mine, and so do a lot of environmental activists (naturally). Derrick Jensen, Kim Stanley Robinson, Daniel Quinn, among others. Now, if you want to paint a broad brush and call us "religious," it's your prerogative, but I hope you can appreciate the irony in that.

I say again, go back and read my first posts. I have no beef with individual vegetarians who do not evangelize. PETA are the religious freaks.

..but by all means, keep painting me with that broad brush. I may just take that brush and use it to put the barbeque sauce on the pig picking.

As far as that vid, sure they need to find a quicker way to kill the animal, and try to avoid waste.

At the same time I listen to that sad, sad music in the background and think "who the fuck are they trying to kid?" Painkillers? Fuck that. Use the rod gun and be done with it.

If you dont like what you see in that vid, then by all means dont partake.

If you try to legislate what goes on my dinner plate..then me and you are going to have a SERIOUS talk, and it may get awfully physical.

[Minimalist]

Read up on it. Hitler would have made a fine PETA leader.

No, not really. Albert Speer recounted in Inside the Third Reich that Hitler would have his meals prepared by a vegetarian chef but his other guests were served a normal meal. Speer added that Hitler would sometimes chide his guests for being "carrion eaters" but he was far less judgmental than these PETA assholes....or xtian assholes.

[reverendjeremiah]

Read up on it. Hitler would have made a fine PETA leader.

No, not really. Albert Speer recounted in Inside the Third Reich that Hitler would have his meals prepared by a vegetarian chef but his other guests were served a normal meal. Speer added that Hitler would sometimes chide his guests for being "carrion eaters" but he was far less judgmental than these PETA assholes....or xtian assholes.

Hmmm...good point. I didnt read anywhere saying Adolph would have charged meat eaters with MURDER ..like the freaks at PETA would like legislated against our majority will.

[reverendjeremiah]

mmm..Im eating new york strip medium rare. I was going to wait until tomorrow, but that video got me wanting steak today.

[Minimalist]

Read up on it. Hitler would have made a fine PETA leader.

No, not really. Albert Speer recounted in Inside the Third Reich that Hitler would have his meals prepared by a vegetarian chef but his other guests were served a normal meal. Speer added that Hitler would sometimes chide his guests for being "carrion eaters" but he was far less judgmental than these PETA assholes....or xtian assholes.

Hmmm...good point. I didnt read anywhere saying Adolph would have charged meat eaters with MURDER ..like the freaks at PETA would like legislated against our majority will.

Yeah....and let's face it. It takes a lot to be a bigger asshole than Hitler.

[Watson]

You know, I will admit that this is pretty fucked up. :/

[Interzone]

P.S> Hitler was vegetarian. Hitler believed that a vegetarian diet could both alleviate personal health problems and bring about a spiritual regeneration.

So what if he was? You're merely reiterating my point, which was that your were making the very simple association fallacy, and you know that. Again, it's the exact same thing if I said all Atheists are Nazis, and that all Vegans are Religious/Extremists. Obviously, NOT TRUE. Dangling a red herring only makes you look like a fool.

I don't think you've even attempted a single, logical argument in this entire thread.

I say again, go back and read my first posts. I have no beef with individual vegetarians who do not evangelize. PETA are the religious freaks.

Good, but you DID equate VEGANISM (and NOT PETA) with religion in the thread title. I am not putting words in your mouth, now, am I? Now, when I defended VEGANISM, your reply was this

It is very much like a religion, as there is no grounds to ban eating meat, but that is what PETA wants to do.

A rather nasty way of doing business, no? Somehow, you infer PETA and "bans" from my complaints against animal cruelty and veganism. Nice little trick you pulled.

If you try to legislate what goes on my dinner plate..then me and you are going to have a SERIOUS talk, and it may get awfully physical.

Again, did I ever bring this up?

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Could you please clarify whether you are against eating meat or cruelty to animals.(there is a difference)

They inevitably go hand in hand. As I said before, I am NOT against eating meat for meat's sake. However, it is a fact that virtually all processed meat comes from animal farms, in which creatures suffer enormously. That is my complaint.

But having said that I have no problem killing to eat. But I would make it quick and painless.

I would argue that "humane" means more than just a quick and painless death. Quality of life is, I think, of great importance. Animals shouldn't be mistreated during life, and shouldn't live in filthy, cramped cages.

Something I might add that a animal in the wild would not grant. A lion does not care if the antelope it has just killed has suffered or not, and would not understand the concept if you tried to explain it.

I'm a utilitarian, and my overriding philosophy is to do as little harm as possible, while doing as much good as possible. Simple as that. I cannot possibly fault a lion for being inhumane. As you clearly pointed out, lions are not capable of the concept. However, WE are, which is the difference I try to emphasize in these discussions.

But I like meat and I feel no guilt in eating it.

Well, I won't object to that. As I said, though, I would appreciate it if people at least give the idea some thought. And some amount of respect for Vegans would be nice. We're not freaks, you know (well, most of us aren't.)

[reverendjeremiah]

So what if he was? You're merely reiterating my point, which was that your were making the very simple association fallacy, and you know that. Again, it's the exact same thing if I said all Atheists are Nazis, and that all Vegans are Religious/Extremists. Obviously, NOT TRUE. Dangling a red herring only makes you look like a fool.

No, the biggest fallacy is thinking that anything we discuss on this forum actually makes any difference in the world. If you think this forum is any more than just the opinions of different people, or that this is more than just chit chat, then I dont know how to answer you.

Might I remind you that you godwin'd first, not me. Not that it really matters. If you dont like what I have to say, then post your opinion. I am not going to fool myself thinking that any conversation on this forum will make any difference to anyone on here.

Good, but you DID equate VEGANISM (and NOT PETA) with religion in the thread title. I am not putting words in your mouth, now, am I? Now, when I defended VEGANISM, your reply was this

I specifically said I have no beef with VEGETARIANS. The topic is VEGANISM. They are two different things according to modern definitions:

-Vegetarianism encompasses the practice of following plant-based diets (fruits, vegetables, etc.), with or without the inclusion of dairy products or eggs, and with the exclusion of meat (red meat, poultry, and seafood). Abstention from by-products of animal slaughter, such as animal-derived rennet and gelatin, may also be practiced.

-Veganism is the practice of eliminating the use by human beings of non-human animal products. Ethical vegans reject the commodity status of animals and the use of animal products for any purpose, while dietary vegans or strict vegetarians eliminate them from their diet only

Therefore, I dont mind vegetarians, and I dispise Vegans and consider them extremists that mimic a religion. In other words my wording is intact and precise. PETA is slam full of VEGANS who want to force their agenda on the rest of us.

I stand by my topic name

Again, did I ever bring this up?

Nope..I was merely pointing out my opinion.

[Interzone]

No, the biggest fallacy is thinking that anything we discuss on this forum actually makes any difference in the world. If you think this forum is any more than just the opinions of different people, or that this is more than just chit chat, then I dont know how to answer you.

Great, and I pointed out the flaws in your logic. If we're having a discussion and airing opinions, then we're doing so. What's your point? What is my "fallacy" here again?

I specifically said I have no beef with VEGETARIANS. The topic is VEGANISM. They are two different things according to modern definitions:

Veganism is the practice of eliminating the use by human beings of non-human animal products. Ethical vegans reject the commodity status of animals and the use of animal products for any purpose, while dietary vegans or strict vegetarians eliminate them from their diet only

You're dense, aren't you. I know the topic was veganism, and I made arguments why veganism is both ethically and philosophically acceptable. You, on the other hand, haven't made any argument that's even remotely coherent, except ramble about out how PETA wants to govern your life. I'm not the one straying all over the place here.

Therefore, I dont mind vegetarians, and I dispise Vegans and consider them extremists that mimic a religion. In other words my wording is intact and precise. PETA is slam full of VEGANS who want to force their agenda on the rest of us.

Therefore, I don't mind agnostics, and I despise atheists and consider them extremists that mimic a religion. Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia were "slam full of ATHEISTS" who wanted to force their agenda on the rest of us. See, I can play this silly game too.