The Historical Christ

[Giff]

I say that it's impossible to create a historical Jesus. I don't trust the bible as any good resource and since there are no texts or documents from the time he was supposed to have lived do I not think we can acctually say that Jesus have exicted. It's for sure that the biblical Jesus haven't exicted and a Jesus that the character in bible is also verey unlikely.

There are no evidence that such a prophet have exicted, excepts from the bible. But there it also says that enitre world was flooded. So I don't think it's relible resource to use when creating a historical Jesus. To make such a thing out of the Bible is like making a historical Tom Bombadil.

[dagda]

Well, Giff, the flood myth appears in almost every culture from the Maya to the Pacific Islanders and everyone in between. Although Noah (who appears in almost all of these flood myths in some form or another) may be fantasy, the flood certianly was not. At the end of the last Ice Age the sea level rose. Although it is an exaguration to state that the entire world was flooded, a good portion of the habitated world (around the coast, up rivers etc) was.

Recent exploration in the North Sea has shown that many habitated areas where submerged and this has lead to most geographers, historians and scientists admiting that the ancient flood myths have more than a grain of truth in them (although they tend to rap it up in symbolism, which is what all peoples tend to do with tragity stories).

The flood myths are not alone in sheding light on forgotten areas of our past. The Minoan civilisation, Troy and the Hittites all owe thier discovery to old ledgends and, as more work is carried out, the Exodus account is slowly becoming more likley (although God is yet to make an appearance!). Now, if we can accept one ledgend in the bible as having some truth (even if exagurated) then why not another?

[leo-rcc]

Well, Giff, the flood myth appears in almost every culture from the Maya to the Pacific Islanders and everyone in between. Although Noah (who appears in almost all of these flood myths in some form or another) may be fantasy, the flood certianly was not. At the end of the last Ice Age the sea level rose. Although it is an exaguration to state that the entire world was flooded, a good portion of the habitated world (around the coast, up rivers etc) was.

Recent exploration in the North Sea has shown that many habitated areas where submerged and this has lead to most geographers, historians and scientists admiting that the ancient flood myths have more than a grain of truth in them (although they tend to rap it up in symbolism, which is what all peoples tend to do with tragity stories).

The flood myths are not alone in sheding light on forgotten areas of our past. The Minoan civilisation, Troy and the Hittites all owe thier discovery to old ledgends and, as more work is carried out, the Exodus account is slowly becoming more likley (although God is yet to make an appearance!). Now, if we can accept one ledgend in the bible as having some truth (even if exagurated) then why not another?

Have you any evidence to back up these claims? Yes floods happened all the time and still do, but I have yet to see any evidence of a massive flood happening all over the globe at the same time.

And of the Exodus account I have yet to hear any supporting evidence, and not for the lack of trying either.

[lilphil1989]

Have you any evidence to back up these claims?

Do you really need to ask?

[leo-rcc]

Have you any evidence to back up these claims?

Do you really need to ask?

Yes I do.

[dagda]

The global flood is scientific fact. When massive amounts of ice melts (as it did at the end of the last Ice Age) it does not just disapear into space for a little holiday untill we need it again at the next Ice Age, it goes into the sea (mainly) and contributes to a rising sea level. This rising sea level does not happen localy hence global flood.

Even if we did not have this evidence, fishing ships haul up land animal bones from the bottom of the worlds oceans all the time (as well as signs of human habitation). These are not magical bones. They are there because the animals died and then the bones were covered by the rising water.

The eruption on Thera happened around the same time as the Exodus account was set. An explosion of that scale (about a hundred times worse than Mt. Saint Helen) leads to the plauges accounted for in Exodus (although in the wrong order, which is to be expected in such an old manuscript). What is more, there is various mentions to the Hebrews (Hykos) in slavery on tomb walls etc. I could ramble on for pages about the subject, but thats not the debate in hand, is it?!

[Tiberius]

The global flood is scientific fact. When massive amounts of ice melts (as it did at the end of the last Ice Age) it does not just disapear into space for a little holiday untill we need it again at the next Ice Age, it goes into the sea (mainly) and contributes to a rising sea level. This rising sea level does not happen localy hence global flood.

It doesn't cover the globe, and often it goes to the atmosphere as well as to the sea. Anyway, there are always large amounts of ice at the poles, due to them being cold most of the year. It doesn't take an Ice Age to have that.

Even if we did not have this evidence, fishing ships haul up land animal bones from the bottom of the worlds oceans all the time (as well as signs of human habitation). These are not magical bones. They are there because the animals died and then the bones were covered by the rising water.

Continental drift explains why fossils of animals are found both in the sea and at the top of mountains. I want to see some evidence that "signs of human habitation" have been found at the bottom of the world's oceans though.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

"Well, Giff, the flood myth appears in almost every culture from the Maya to the Pacific Islanders and everyone in between"

Although a common myth, the flood is far from a universal theme. Nor are they chronologies consistent. EG Some south American flood myths are only a few centuries old,and have been attributed to El Nino.

As far as I'm aware,there is no evidence of a single global flood.The Torah is myth,not history. Continuing new evidence supports that contention,it does not weaken it.

That flood myths should be common is not all surprising. A flood is great natural catastrophe. In context,it would be reasonable for people seeing water to the horizon to assume then entire earth had been covered.

The myth of the flood and Noah may have been credible to a bronze age people, who had little understanding of the number of species in the world. Today the notion of Noah's ark is simply not credible.

[dagda]

What are you people talking about?

'It doesn't cover the globe, and often it goes to the atmosphere as well as to the sea. Anyway, there are always large amounts of ice at the poles, due to them being cold most of the year. It doesn't take an Ice Age to have that.'

I thought it was obvious that global flood in this context meant there was rising sea levels globaly. Of course it did not cover the world, but the flood happened worldwide (unless you are in Mongolia, Austria etc I supose). And I am not sure if I understand the Ice Age comment. In the last Ice Age, ice sheets went as far south as London. In case you havn't noticed, they have gone. All that ice sure hasn't stayed in the atmosphere for the last 10,000 years-which means rising sea levels.

'The myth of the flood and Noah may have been credible to a bronze age people, who had little understanding of the number of species in the world. Today the notion of Noah's ark is simply not credible. '

Did I not say Noah was probably fantasy? Anyway, we digress again. The point was that the bible records an actual flood hence we should not dismiss the bible as an historical document (to use as a guide anyway) just because of bias.

[Giff]

Dagda, the flood in the bible was probably refering to the great flood in todays Iraq. There also was a story during that flood about a man, a farmer, who had a boat where he had most of his animals. Probably the origin of that myth about Noah.

But there have not been a glodabl flood or floods that happen at the sametime, nor a rise of the sealevel. It could have been a rise of the sealevel during that time, but most people wouldn't notice since these often are not very drastic changes.