Victim Blaming?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Seeking to attach blame for a misdeed is an entirely natural human response to a misdeed.

I'm all for rational preparation, but attaching a pejorative label like "victim thinker" to someone simply because they want to attach blame for a crime is not only based on an unrealistic grasp of human psychology, it's also pretty heartless, I think.

A person can both stay prepared, and seek to place blame. Speaking rationally, asserting otherwise is a false dichotomy.

Certainly! And US courts agree and rightfully serve sentence to the guilty party of the rapist nearly no matter what the circumstance of the victim. Rape is rape and the volitional part (blame) is fully on the rapist which is mostly male because that's just how anatomy and evolutionary predisposition is.

I think the situation is worse than a "victim-hood, all men are rapists" mind set. It's becoming "women bear no self responsibility for their situation and their actions have no consequences."

I disagree. Not only is no one saying that "all men are rapists" (strawman much?!), you've got examples in this very thread of women who are speaking otherwise regarding consequences of behavior and decisions.

You can ignore them if you wish, but that doesn't make their posts less-pertinent. They are women; they are saying that getting drunk raises vulnerability and that it isn't wise. Even the OP (in a later post) wrote, "Why put yourself in danger?" It sure seems to me, on this side of the screen, that there's a preconceived notion in play on your part.

Bang that drum all you want, but don't bang it over the heads here. The gals are generally talking sensibly, and don't deserve to be pasted with your sociological perspective when they generally aren't espousing what you claim.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Are you a feminist, by any chance?

I'm a man and I'm not a feminist...and I do the same.

Meh. I greet the world with a smile.The worried life is no life for me.

Of course, I'm not afraid of a little scrap, gimpy though I might be -- so I don't worry. There's very little a smile won't solve, and I'm not about to mortgage my happiness for assuming everyone I meet is a potential threat. And if I do perceive a threat, I distance myself from it.

But I sure don't chew my teeth about it day-to-day.

[Arkilogue]

Certainly! And US courts agree and rightfully serve sentence to the guilty party of the rapist nearly no matter what the circumstance of the victim. Rape is rape and the volitional part (blame) is fully on the rapist which is mostly male because that's just how anatomy and evolutionary predisposition is.

I think the situation is worse than a "victim-hood, all men are rapists" mind set. It's becoming "women bear no self responsibility for their situation and their actions have no consequences."

I disagree. Not only is no one saying that "all men are rapists" (strawman much?!), you've got examples in this very thread of women who are speaking otherwise regarding consequences of behavior and decisions.

You can ignore them if you wish, but that doesn't make their posts less-pertinent. They are women; they are saying that getting drunk raises vulnerability and that it isn't wise. Even the OP (in a later post) wrote, "Why put yourself in danger?" It sure seems to me, on this side of the screen, that there's a preconceived notion in play on your part.

Bang that drum all you want, but don't bang it over the heads here. The gals are generally talking sensibly, and don't deserve to be pasted with your sociological perspective when they generally aren't espousing what you claim.

I didn't say anyone did nor did I say "all men", I said it's mostly men doing the raping due to anatomy and evolutionary predisposition. Turns out more men are raped in the US than women...by other men in prison. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...abuse.html

I'm not ignoring them and your white knighting is unnecessary.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I didn't say anyone did nor did I say "all men", I said it's mostly men doing the raping due to anatomy and evolutionary predisposition.

No, you didn't say you held that yourself, you imputed it to others:

I think the situation is worse than a "victim-hood, all men are rapists" mind set.

Turns out more men are raped in the US than women...by other men in prison.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...abuse.html

No doubt. Prison is a rough environment, but tu quoque is never a proper justification, and that renders this point a red herring. The topic under discussion is how women carry themselves in open society as free people, not how prisoners react to strong negative pressures with further antisocial behavior -- and equivocating the two is very inapt.

I'm not ignoring them and your white knighting is unnecessary.

Well, you're certainly not acknowledging that they're not conforming to your overbroad generalization, now are you? And how is that not ignoring their points?

And -- I'm not "white-knighting" anyone. I'm speaking my mind, and pointing out how you're imputing views that haven't been aired here in such an overbroad manner that those points reveal more about you than anyone else.

Don't like it? Tough shit.

Don't worry, you'll live.

[Arkilogue]

I'm a man and I'm not a feminist...and I do the same.

Meh. I greet the world with a smile.The worried life is no life for me.

Of course, I'm not afraid of a little scrap, gimpy though I might be -- so I don't worry. There's very little a smile won't solve, and I'm not about to mortgage my happiness for assuming everyone I meet is a potential threat. And if I do perceive a threat, I distance myself from it.

But I sure don't chew my teeth about it day-to-day.

Interesting. http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...-almost-a/

"Baring one's teeth is not always a threat. In primates, showing the teeth, especially teeth held together, is almost always a sign of submission. The human smile probably has evolved from that.

"In the primate threat, the lips are curled back and the teeth are apart--you are ready to bite. But if the teeth are pressed together and the lips are relaxed, then clearly you are not prepared to do any damage. These displays are combined with other facial features, such as what you do with your eyes, to express a whole range of feelings. In a lot of human smiling, it is something you do in public, but it does not reflect true 'friendly' feelings--think of politicians smiling for photographers.



In the art of war, deception and seduction and there are few things more used to deceive than the smile.

[Regina]

It's tricky, and like others have said I see both sides of the coin.

I feel like saying "women shouldn't have to be careful" is ideal, unfortunately it's not reality. There are some shitty men in this world, it's been that way for a long time, and it'll continue however much we attempt to educate men about consent. That's just sad reality, it shouldn't be that way, but it is.

It is always the rapists' fault, let's be clear on that. However, I feel like it's not an either/or situation, and that's what bothers me with this conversation. People act like you're saying either it's the rapists' fault or it's entirely on the victim for not being responsible. No both can exist, they're actually not mutually exclusive. It is always the rapists' fault yes, but I think there are also some situations where I do think the victim could have been a bit more responsible... although not that the victim's state of drunkenness should ever be used to consider the rapist somehow more innocent.

Case in point, that story that came out a while ago where some woman in South Africa, drunk or some shit, decided to get naked into a shower with a man she barely knew. So no, rather than using her intuition and saying "no, I'm good" she gets in the shower with him and then gets oh so *surprised* when he makes sexual advances? Really? That's not realistic or rational.

Alcohol has many effects. The same drug that can make one person lose their inhibitions that would normally stop then from acting on sexual urges, can also take away another's sense of danger and responsibility. This is also the same drug (taking it away from rape) that causes fights, idiotic behaviour, throwing up in the streets, and a plethora of illnesses in the long term. It's not to say "don't drink or enjoy yourself", we all love a drink sometimes, but you do have to be aware of the effects of alcohol and that's why education around the issue is so important.

[Arkilogue]

I didn't say anyone did nor did I say "all men", I said it's mostly men doing the raping due to anatomy and evolutionary predisposition.

No, you didn't say you held that yourself, you imputed it to others:

I think the situation is worse than a "victim-hood, all men are rapists" mind set.

Turns out more men are raped in the US than women...by other men in prison.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...abuse.html

No doubt. Prison is a rough environment, but tu quoque is never a proper justification, and that renders this point a red herring. The topic under discussion is how women carry themselves in open society as free people, not how prisoners react to strong negative pressures with further antisocial behavior -- and equivocating the two is very inapt.

I'm not ignoring them and your white knighting is unnecessary.

Well, you're certainly not acknowledging that they're not conforming to your overbroad generalization, now are you? And how is that not ignoring their points?

And -- I'm not "white-knighting" anyone. I'm speaking my mind, and pointing out how you're imputing views that haven't been aired here in such an overbroad manner that those points reveal more about you than anyone else.

Don't like it? Tough shit.

Don't worry, you'll live.

Yes and that mind set exists and is being promoted in popular culture.

https://www.google.com/search?client=ope...8&oe=UTF-8

I am not equivocating the two, I'm pointing out the undeniable fact that males do most of the raping, even of other males. Would you like to take a look at female prisons? http://www.copblock.org/149319/massive-f...on-in-u-s/ Forced prostitution and rape by male guards/wardens/chaplains.

I responded to posts I took issue with, I gave kudos to one's I agreed with. You would despise me even more if I responded to every single post.

I took issue with the notion that it's okay to get black out drunk and think you'll be safe from harm.
If you don't like people taking some responsibility for the situations they end up in, tough shit.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Meh. I greet the world with a smile.The worried life is no life for me.

Of course, I'm not afraid of a little scrap, gimpy though I might be -- so I don't worry. There's very little a smile won't solve, and I'm not about to mortgage my happiness for assuming everyone I meet is a potential threat. And if I do perceive a threat, I distance myself from it.

But I sure don't chew my teeth about it day-to-day.

Interesting. http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...-almost-a/

"Baring one's teeth is not always a threat. In primates, showing the teeth, especially teeth held together, is almost always a sign of submission. The human smile probably has evolved from that.

"In the primate threat, the lips are curled back and the teeth are apart--you are ready to bite. But if the teeth are pressed together and the lips are relaxed, then clearly you are not prepared to do any damage. These displays are combined with other facial features, such as what you do with your eyes, to express a whole range of feelings. In a lot of human smiling, it is something you do in public, but it does not reflect true 'friendly' feelings--think of politicians smiling for photographers.



In the art of war, deception and seduction and there are few things more used to deceive than the smile.

You apparently don't know what chewing one's teeth means, as a colloquialism. It is not a baring of one's teeth, but rather, a reference to stress which results in teeth-grinding.

You're welcome.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yes and that mind set exists and is being promoted in popular culture.

My point, which you obviously missed, is that it's not being promoted here, which means that you're either not in the loop of this conversation, or you're deliberately trying to impute views not being espoused. In either case, you contribution isn't really relevant to the topic, now is it?

I am not equivocating the two, I'm pointing out the undeniable fact that males do most of the raping, even of other males. Would you like to take a look at female prisons? http://www.copblock.org/149319/massive-f...on-in-u-s/ Forced prostitution and rape by male guards/wardens/chaplains.

No, you were hammering the point home that females drinking put themselves at higher risk -- a point most everyone seems to agree with -- and then throwing this onto the sled too.

I responded to posts I took issue with, I gave kudos to one's I agreed with. You would despise me even more if I responded to every single post.

Sheesh, I don't despise you, man. But I call a spade a spade, and you're hawking a little bullshit in with your selling points here.

I took issue with the notion that it's okay to get black out drunk and think you'll be safe from harm.

And no one's arguing that, this is an issue in your head, only.

If you don't like people taking some responsibility for the situations they end up in, tough shit.

Feel free to quote, with a link, to support this strawman. Or, alternatively, you could simply get back on topic and quit spewing agenda. That choice is yours.

[Arkilogue]

And this is why I say something:

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/d...ction.html

In one awful high-profile case after another—the U.S. Naval Academy; Steubenville, Ohio; now the allegations in Maryville, Mo.—we read about a young woman, sometimes only a girl, who goes to a party and ends up being raped. As soon as the school year begins, so do reports of female students sexually assaulted by their male classmates. A common denominator in these cases is alcohol, often copious amounts, enough to render the young woman incapacitated. But a misplaced fear of blaming the victim has made it somehow unacceptable to warn inexperienced young women that when they get wasted, they are putting themselves in potential peril.


And then we have this: http://www.xojane.com/issues/victim-blam...pe-alcohol

The latest controversy over a victim-blaming column comes courtesy of “The Daily Campus,” put out by Southern Methodist University. The column’s author, Kirby Wiley, asserts that: “What is the common theme in the majority of sexual assault or rape cases on college campuses? Alcohol abuse...The best way for women to prevent these assaults from happening to them is to never drink so much that they cannot control themselves or remember what happened the next day. If women quit putting themselves in situations where they appear vulnerable, it will be much less likely for men to try and take advantage of them.”

I feel like I say this 100 times a week, but here it is again anyway: the only people responsible for rape are rapists. The solution to rape involves getting people to stop raping people, and that responsibility lies solely on the people who think it is acceptable to rape. And clearly we need to educate people about what rape is, and how they are complicit in it.

----


Good luck with forcing others to change and care who are breaking the law in the first place and couldn't care less.

Germany and Sweden have pretty much given up on that. Oh wait strike that, they expect all women to change behavior with government officials telling women to wear less revealing clothes even suggesting they wear a burqa, put on a bracelet that says "don't touch me" (I guess this is educating the rapist?) and wear sneakers to be able to run away from would-be rapists.

Insanity.

Pray to God that if Clinton wins she won't become America's Angela Merkel because if a similar "migrant crisis" is unleashed over here, women will be thrown under the bus and be drown out by the self congratulatory suicide of "cultural diversity."