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February 6, 2017 at 5:54 am (This post was last modified: February 6, 2017 at 5:55 am by ignoramus.)
Kudos to the other posters for giving me this idea. I feel it deserves exploring further.
We know God is Omni everything.
We also know that God talks to theists. (We've been told by many -they can't all be wrong, can they?)
My question is: Why cannot God ever tell one of his believers something they don't already know?
The sceptics answer obviously is because God is a product of their imagination and therefore this "character" can never be
more knowledgeable than the mind it inhabits.
Theists? Does he talk in hunches? gut instinct? feelings? from the heart?
Got bad news there too... Those are human traits. We all have them. That's just your brain number-crunching to make sense of a particular situation.
February 6, 2017 at 7:12 am (This post was last modified: February 6, 2017 at 7:16 am by MTL.)
(February 6, 2017 at 5:54 am)ignoramus Wrote: Kudos to the other posters for giving me this idea. I feel it deserves exploring further.
We know God is Omni everything.
We also know that God talks to theists. (We've been told by many -they can't all be wrong, can they?)
My question is: Why cannot God ever tell one of his believers something they don't already know?
The sceptics answer obviously is because God is a product of their imagination and therefore this "character" can never be
more knowledgeable than the mind it inhabits.
Theists? Does he talk in hunches? gut instinct? feelings? from the heart?
Got bad news there too... Those are human traits. We all have them. That's just your brain number-crunching to make sense of a particular situation.
It's pretty obvious really.
Let the apologetics begin:
Whenever someone, like my own Grandfather, tells me that they do not merely BELIEVE that there is a god,
but that they KNOW that there is is a god,
I ask them how they know.
They then usually tell me that they've had a "personal experience" of god.
And I do not tell them that they're wrong (much as I would like to) because I ultimately don't know what their experience was,
but I do ask them how they know that their experience was of god, and not of something pretending to be god?
They just feel it, they just know it, is usually the answer.
Sure, ok, I'll go with that...
...but I am quick to point out that if I am wise enough to not question whether or not they've legitimately had that experience or not,
then conversely, they should also be wise enough not to expect me to accept their personal experience as a legit manifestation of a legit god,
unless I have a similar experience, myself, or unless proof can be procured.
Their mere experience is insufficient as proof....like if someone came and told me they saw a werewolf.
What I DO point out, though, is when god gives DOESN'T tell them NOT to tell other people.
If god was to visit me in a dream, or even a waking vision, I would, at the very least,
expect him to caution me that it was not only NOT necessary, but inadvisable, for me,
to share the experience with others;
For such an experience to seem remotely legitimate, that god would appear to me for the sake of our own relationship, ONLY...
...to give me peace, to give me illumination along my path....and he would be an intelligent, wise,
and selfless god; he would gently point out to me that exhilarating as this experience might be,
there is no need to share it with others; he would caution me that it would only open me to ridicule;
he would point out that I should be still and know that He is God...
meaning, he can reach any and every human being on earth, if he wants to, without the need of my witnessing, without my help;
that this experience was for me, and for me, only...there is no need to include anyone else in it.
And I would CERTAINLY expect that such a vision would NOT charge me with any specific task,
whether that be to prophesy to others, or to go and shoot up an abortion clinic,
or to fly an airplane into a skyscraper.
I point out that any visitation that charges me with a task is a red flag:
(even if it is only to go forth and witness unto others)
it probably isn't legitimately from god,
but from some deceiving force pretending to be god....like a demon
(or your own fucked up brain),
because, again, any god worth a damn doesn't need to "work His Will through me"
...at least in not such a hamfisted and destructive, or stupid fashion...
but a demon who is easily exhausted, who doesn't want to waste his energy doing shit, himself,
might try to trick me into doing his grunt work, for him.
And then, depending on how far the conversation goes,
I then share the only religious experience I've ever personally had, of god, myself, in my life:
I was raised in a devout Baptist family and rebelled against the religion and it's effects since age 15;
Along the way, I struggled with my own conflicts of "faith",
until I learned to separate the idea of god completely away from the idea of religion,
and learned to accept that god MIGHT exist,
but that doesn't mean, by any stretch,
that his parameters and nature are what humanity thinks they are.
But even long after I made these distinctions,
I continued to struggle with personal issues and family issues,
and my depression deepened and deepened and deepened....for decades.
One night I hit rock bottom.
In my utter despair, tapped-out of all emotional and mental strenth,
I, now an Agnostic of many years,
wept on the concrete floor of the basement I was in,
ready to hang myself with an extension cord from the wooden joists in the ceiling,
and took a leap of faith:
I cried till I was sick,
I confessed my lack of faith and begged His pardon,
I confessed my wretchedness and unworthiness,
and begged for His mercy, for faith, for guidance:
I want to believe in You, I want to find You;
I put myself into Thine Hands, work Thou Thine Will with me.
Some indeterminate amount of time later, I dragged myself up to my bed,
and cried myself to sleep.
I slept long and well.
I dreamed my normal, nonsensical dreams, along no particular path.
But just before waking,
my dreams took a very sudden and seemingly deliberate turn:
I still slept,
but I was dreaming in real time:
it was morning, and the sun creeping in around the edges of the window-blinds;
I dreamt I was in my own bed, in my own room.
Suddenly I felt a cutting sensation in my chest, both hot and cold at the same time,
and I looked at my own chest, in my dream, and saw it opening up,
a blue-white light emanating from within.
A steam-like wraith rose quickly out of the fissure, toward the ceiling,
and it seemed illuminated from within, as well,
and there was the definite scheme of a face visible:
I knew instantly it was Jesus.
He looked right at me, conscious, knowing, but emotionless and cold.
He looked me in the eye....and was gone. In an instant.
My chest was cold, empty, open and dark.
There was no light left, save what came in around my bedroom window.
I woke up.
My hand flew to my chest, which, of course, was sound and normal,
and my room looked exactly as it had in my dream...it was morning, light was creeping in.
I sat up to consider.
I recalled the events of the previous evening;
I recalled my despair, that I had cracked and called out to god,
that I had Asked, Seeked, Knocked....
...and for the first time in my life, I seemed to have received a definite and real answer;
for the first time in my life, having taken a true leap of faith,
having prostrated myself before Jesus, having asked His mercy...
...and Jesus had replied by looking me in the eye and turning his back on me.
No comfort, no mercy, no illumination, no guidance.
He cut himself out of my heart, where perhaps he had resided since I was a little girl and invited Him there,
and left me an empty shell.
That was my own religious experience.
Now, I'm not as upset as you might think.
Certainly, having been raised all your life to believe something, even if you have walked away from it,
it is disquieting to have your only religious experience being one of being rejected by God, Himself,
when you flung yourself at His mercy.
But several things occurred to me, immediately:
1. I didn't have a religious experience.
What I had was a lucid dream in which my own subconscious was telling me
that I had outgrown the need for this gobbledegook.
2. I DID have an authentic experience of Jesus...but that's NOT to say it was also of GOD.
As I have previously hypothesized,
Jesus is no more the "son of god" than any of us are;
and indeed, may be nothing more than a demon or lower-echelon spirit,
(of which there may be many, the fallen old Greek and Roman and Egyptian gods also among them, for all we know)
trying to trick humanity, with a mix of truth and lies,
into paying attention to him and believing that he is something he isn't,
which gives him, as a demon, strength.
3. Jesus IS the Son of God, God DID turn His back on me,
and I am either beyond redemption, or simply not worth redeeming.
(Which means God can't be as merciful and loving as the Bible says He is).
4. I didn't have a religious experience.
What I had was a lucid dream in which my own subconscious was telling me
that I had outgrown the need for this gobbledegook.
So my question to the Christians is this:
Why would a truly loving, forgiving God shut His ears to such an earnest plea?
Does the Bible lie when it says Ask, Seek, Knock?
If it was the Devil deceiving me,
why oh why would God allow Satan to deceive me at the point where I had made a leap of faith?
If God does, in fact, exist,
but this was merely the work of my own skeptical subconscious,
why again would God not overrule my subconscious and silence it,
and accept my previous night's confession of a lack of faith,
and plea for forgiveness, mercy, and for subsequent illumination?
February 6, 2017 at 11:22 am (This post was last modified: February 6, 2017 at 11:48 am by Neo-Scholastic.)
Why is this thread in Life Sciences? Am I missing something?
I cannot speak for other believers. I had two profoundly religious experiences that would Maslow would have called “peak experiences”. Other than that I have had many, many times when both minor and major life events unfolded in truly uncanny ways. Generally, I have not been overly impressed with prayer requests. The “soft, still voice” tends to sound like my own. That said, I do have an on-going relationship with Being-as-Such (an intentionally neutral term I only use on AF) that pretty much colors every quiet moment.
In Mormonism, their 'God' demonstrably knows LESS than Joe Smith since Joe (and his successors in the LDS hierarchy) have, until recently, had to correct, change, revise, alter, update and reinterpret every revelation 'God' has seen fit to give them.
One might conclude 'God' was showing favoritism and gave all the good stuff to L. Ron Hubbard . . .
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
February 6, 2017 at 1:23 pm (This post was last modified: February 6, 2017 at 1:26 pm by Whateverist.)
(February 6, 2017 at 7:12 am)MTL Wrote: But several things occurred to me, immediately:
1. I didn't have a religious experience.
What I had was a lucid dream in which my own subconscious was telling me
that I had outgrown the need for this gobbledegook.
2. I DID have an authentic experience of Jesus...but that's NOT to say it was also of GOD.
As I have previously hypothesized,
Jesus is no more the "son of god" than any of us are;
and indeed, may be nothing more than a demon or lower-echelon spirit,
(of which there may be many, the fallen old Greek and Roman and Egyptian gods also among them, for all we know)
trying to trick humanity, with a mix of truth and lies,
into paying attention to him and believing that he is something he isn't,
which gives him, as a demon, strength.
3. Jesus IS the Son of God, God DID turn His back on me,
and I am either beyond redemption, or simply not worth redeeming.
(Which means God can't be as merciful and loving as the Bible says He is).
4. I didn't have a religious experience.
What I had was a lucid dream in which my own subconscious was telling me
that I had outgrown the need for this gobbledegook.
So my question to the Christians is this:
Why would a truly loving, forgiving God shut His ears to such an earnest plea?
Does the Bible lie when it says Ask, Seek, Knock?
If it was the Devil deceiving me,
why oh why would God allow Satan to deceive me at the point where I had made a leap of faith?
If God does, in fact, exist,
but this was merely the work of my own skeptical subconscious,
why again would God not overrule my subconscious and silence it,
and accept my previous night's confession of a lack of faith,
and plea for forgiveness, mercy, and for subsequent illumination?
[My bold of your fourth point. Oops, should have bolded your number one I see now.]
Just to say if you didn't have "a religious experience", then no one ever has a religious experience. I have no doubt something like this underlies everything that goes by that description. You had a significant dream to you personally and seem to have internalized its import. The key with all unconscious phenomenon is to hold it in an "as if" manner. Its meaning is always poetic, never prosaic. It meant exactly what you thought/felt it meant and perhaps it helped you over the cognitive dissonance to some degree?
(February 6, 2017 at 11:22 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Why is this thread in Life Sciences? Am I missing something?
I cannot speak for other believers. I had two profoundly religious experiences that would Maslow would have called “peak experiences”. Other than that I have had many, many times when both minor and major life events unfolded in truly uncanny ways. Generally, I have not been overly impressed with prayer requests. The “soft, still voice” tends to sound like my own. That said, I do have an on-going relationship with Being-as-Such (an intentionally neutral term I only use on AF) that pretty much colors every quiet moment.
February 6, 2017 at 6:10 pm (This post was last modified: February 6, 2017 at 6:12 pm by ignoramus.)
Very good analogy Mark!
I think we can think of the God phenomenon as a parasite of the mind...
Without a host, God cannot exist.
He injects himself to the young host via the parents! He is an aurally transmitted virus.
Once embedded he then feeds of the host's emotions.
