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RE: Murder in Michigan
July 9, 2011 at 4:12 pm
Of course making guns harder to get won't end gun deaths Paul, neither will end crime. But it will increase the difficulty that much. Its like:
"What's the point in making anti DUI campaigns? People will still drive drunk!"
"What's the point in making anti tobacco campaigns? People will still smoke and die from it!"
The point is not to end gun deaths, it is to DECREASE them. Even if increasing the difficulty of getting guns saved only one life it would be worth it. I don't say to prohibit them completely, but make it harder to get. To have a gun here legally for instance, you need a physical and psychiatric evaluation, then take a few lessons on handling guns
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RE: Murder in Michigan
July 9, 2011 at 4:13 pm
(July 9, 2011 at 3:04 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: I understand the idealism behind the wish to legislate gun control, and even used to share in that idealism... but realism trumps idealism and the reality is that no law can help lessen gun violence at this point, because the bad guys will just use them anyway. You can't put that cat back into the bag.
It sounds to me that you're saying it's fubar, and legislation won't do any good. So, what is your opinion on what should be done about the gun violence in the U.S.?
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RE: Murder in Michigan
July 9, 2011 at 4:32 pm
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2011 at 4:33 pm by Violet.)
(July 9, 2011 at 4:12 pm)LastPoet Wrote: The point is not to end gun deaths, it is to DECREASE them. Even if increasing the difficulty of getting guns saved only one life it would be worth it. I don't say to prohibit them completely, but make it harder to get. To have a gun here legally for instance, you need a physical and psychiatric evaluation, then take a few lessons on handling guns
Whereas to obtain a firearm illegally... all you need is to know people and have a little money.
And one life is worth squat diddly. Especially at the cost of gross inconvenience for everyone else.
It is not hard to get a gun in America. Not even a little. If what you want is *fast* and *easy* and *cheap*... what you *do not* do is the legal thing. The legal thing is what you do if you have any desire to be kosher in the eyes of your government. Where you spend more money for the security in what you purchase and you are willing for it to take a long time and expect to work hard to get it.
I'm going legal for my body's sake and all my surgeries... I would not ever go legal for my weapons.
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RE: Murder in Michigan
July 9, 2011 at 5:01 pm
(July 9, 2011 at 4:32 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: Whereas to obtain a firearm illegally... all you need is to know people and have a little money.
Yes, but do remember that alot less people 'know someone' and 'have money'.
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RE: Murder in Michigan
July 9, 2011 at 5:09 pm
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2011 at 5:10 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Was anyone looking to buy an assualt rifle? some rpg perhaps..might be able to hook you up with an apc if you have a deep wallet.
(couple hundred bucks, tops, less if you buy more)
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RE: Murder in Michigan
July 9, 2011 at 6:32 pm
(July 9, 2011 at 4:12 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Of course making guns harder to get won't end gun deaths Paul, neither will end crime. But it will increase the difficulty that much. Its like:
"What's the point in making anti DUI campaigns? People will still drive drunk!"
"What's the point in making anti tobacco campaigns? People will still smoke and die from it!"
Those examples are not the same thing as the gun issue. DUI campaigns are meant to discourage drunk driving. In the 'carrot and the stick' it is the stick. Anti-smoking campaigns are designed to educate people about the dangerous effects of smoking. Gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of people that weren't going to shoot anyone with them, but leaves them in the hands of those who are. That's why I consider it an ineffective attempt at a solution to gun related crime.
I think people are fooling themselves if they think making guns harder to obtain legally will lower the actual number of guns in existence or the number owned by the criminal element. Remember, Roderick Dantzler (from the original post) did not own his gun legally. That didn't stop him from having (and using) one. So much for the law preventing gun violence.
(July 9, 2011 at 4:12 pm)LastPoet Wrote: The point is not to end gun deaths, it is to DECREASE them. Even if increasing the difficulty of getting guns saved only one life it would be worth it. I don't say to prohibit them completely, but make it harder to get. To have a gun here legally for instance, you need a physical and psychiatric evaluation, then take a few lessons on handling guns
Okay. So you successfully prevent anyone that doesn't pass the rigorous physical and psychiatric evaluations, or complete the 'gun safety' training, or has a criminal record (etc) from owning a gun. Guess what. The number of shootings only decreases incrementally... as you've probably prevented a few accidental shootings... but crime? It doesn't even notice. All you've done is kept guns out of the hands of people that were not, in all likelihood, ever going to shoot anyone.
You could go so far as outlaw guns across the board and they would still exist... and criminals would still have them... and use them.
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RE: Murder in Michigan
July 9, 2011 at 6:38 pm
(July 9, 2011 at 5:01 pm)LastPoet Wrote: (July 9, 2011 at 4:32 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: Whereas to obtain a firearm illegally... all you need is to know people and have a little money.
Yes, but do remember that alot less people 'know someone' and 'have money'.
Then they should find someone and steal some money.
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RE: Murder in Michigan
July 9, 2011 at 6:47 pm
Paul, you didn't answer my previous question, which is what do you think should be done?
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RE: Murder in Michigan
July 9, 2011 at 8:06 pm
Quote:You could go so far as outlaw guns across the board and they would still exist... and criminals would still have them... and use them.
This stranger-on-stranger crime wave that the NRA hypes to work up hysteria is a fascinating psychological study of how Americans are motivated by fear. Statistically, a gun in your home is far more likely to kill you, a family member or an acquaintance than any "criminal."
http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/g...ics.asp#10
Quote:Of the 13,636 Americans who were murdered in 2009, only 215 were killed by firearms (165 by handguns) in homicides by private citizens that law enforcement determined were justifiable.
According to the CDC in 2007 there were 17,000+ gun related suicides in the US. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that those 17,000 households did not obtain said weapon with the idea that someday they might want to blow their own brains out with it. 17,000 suicides ( in many cases probably NOT the person who bought the gun...that's the problem with families ) versus 215 justifiable cases of self-defense seems like a pretty piss poor ratio to me.
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RE: Murder in Michigan
July 10, 2011 at 10:26 am
(July 9, 2011 at 6:47 pm)FaithNoMore Wrote: Paul, you didn't answer my previous question, which is what do you think should be done?
I don't know. I don't think gun control legislation is the answer, but I don't have any alternative ideas. Better vetting and education for gun owners couldn't hurt, but it also wouldn't prevent gun related crime, so...
Something drastic would have to happen in order to really make a difference. Something like... rounding up and confiscating guns. Do you really think that, in the U.S., that would work? Hell no. If the government tried that... there would be another civil war.
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