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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 29, 2017 at 11:01 am
You guys need to read more of Michael Ruse
"Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will—or in the metaphorical roots of evolution or any other part of the framework of the Universe. In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external grounding. Ethics is produced by evolution but is not justified by it because, like Macbeth’s dagger, it serves a powerful purpose without existing in substance.…Unlike Macbeth’s dagger, ethics is a shared illusion of the human race.16"
Again, if you dont believe in OMVs, then everytime you say acts like rape and torture are wrong, you are sufferring from an illusion.
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 29, 2017 at 11:11 am
(This post was last modified: June 29, 2017 at 11:12 am by The Grand Nudger.)
What's the problem? OFC morality is a survival strategy. Does that make child rape any less immoral? Does child rape being objectively harmful make morality any less of an "illusion"?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 29, 2017 at 11:18 am
(June 29, 2017 at 4:52 am)Little Henry Wrote: I am merely pointing out the logical conclusions if morality is subjective.
All you people keep on saying i that there certain acts are right or wrong morally. If you say this you are ADMITTING to OM.
I admit no such thing. Stop pretending to read our minds.
Until otherwise demonstrated, all morality is subjective -- including morality that allegedly comes from a god.
The god of the Bible is a particularly egregious and ugly example of this. It sets up the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" but violates it regularly, with wild abandon. If there is an objective standard upon which the commandment is based, Yahweh is in clear violation of it and accordingly can be ignored as an authority on morality.
Subjective morality is simple: If you don't want it to happen to you, don't do it to someone else.
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 29, 2017 at 11:34 am
(June 29, 2017 at 11:01 am)Little Henry Wrote: You guys need to read more of Michael Ruse
"Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will—or in the metaphorical roots of evolution or any other part of the framework of the Universe. In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external grounding. Ethics is produced by evolution but is not justified by it because, like Macbeth’s dagger, it serves a powerful purpose without existing in substance.…Unlike Macbeth’s dagger, ethics is a shared illusion of the human race.16"
Again, if you dont believe in OMVs, then everytime you say acts like rape and torture are wrong, you are sufferring from an illusion.
No, we don't. You need to get your head out of your ass.
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 29, 2017 at 6:29 pm
(This post was last modified: June 29, 2017 at 6:30 pm by Little Henry.)
(June 29, 2017 at 11:11 am)Khemikal Wrote: What's the problem? OFC morality is a survival strategy. Does that make child rape any less immoral? Does child rape being objectively harmful make morality any less of an "illusion"?
Thats my point. if that is all what morality is, acts like rape and murder are neither right or wrong.
(June 29, 2017 at 11:18 am)Astreja Wrote: (June 29, 2017 at 4:52 am)Little Henry Wrote: I am merely pointing out the logical conclusions if morality is subjective.
All you people keep on saying i that there certain acts are right or wrong morally. If you say this you are ADMITTING to OM.
I admit no such thing. Stop pretending to read our minds.
Until otherwise demonstrated, all morality is subjective -- including morality that allegedly comes from a god.
The god of the Bible is a particularly egregious and ugly example of this. It sets up the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" but violates it regularly, with wild abandon. If there is an objective standard upon which the commandment is based, Yahweh is in clear violation of it and accordingly can be ignored as an authority on morality.
Subjective morality is simple: If you don't want it to happen to you, don't do it to someone else. God does not kill.
As the author of life he has the right to remove anyone from this temporal existence to another existence as he sees fit.
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 29, 2017 at 7:17 pm
(June 29, 2017 at 6:29 pm)Little Henry Wrote: (June 29, 2017 at 11:11 am)Khemikal Wrote: What's the problem? OFC morality is a survival strategy. Does that make child rape any less immoral? Does child rape being objectively harmful make morality any less of an "illusion"?
Thats my point. if that is all what morality is, acts like rape and murder are neither right or wrong.
(June 29, 2017 at 11:18 am)Astreja Wrote: I admit no such thing. Stop pretending to read our minds.
Until otherwise demonstrated, all morality is subjective -- including morality that allegedly comes from a god.
The god of the Bible is a particularly egregious and ugly example of this. It sets up the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" but violates it regularly, with wild abandon. If there is an objective standard upon which the commandment is based, Yahweh is in clear violation of it and accordingly can be ignored as an authority on morality.
Subjective morality is simple: If you don't want it to happen to you, don't do it to someone else. God does not kill.
As the author of life he has the right to remove anyone from this temporal existence to another existence as he sees fit.
So unless you got your god concept from anything other than any of the old or new testament, you are flat-out lying. And if you're arguing for a god that does not kill, or has any other attributes other than the tired 'well everything needs a designer except our designer', I'd love to know what you're basing that on.
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?
---
There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 30, 2017 at 1:22 am
(June 29, 2017 at 6:29 pm)Little Henry Wrote: God does not kill.
As the author of life he has the right to remove anyone from this temporal existence to another existence as he sees fit.
This alleged "right" of your imaginary fiend is something it would have given to itself, by virtue of being too powerful to be stopped by anything else.
What an evil bastard you worship.
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 30, 2017 at 2:19 am
(This post was last modified: June 30, 2017 at 2:20 am by Amarok.)
Any concept of taking life is killing
And he has this right because ? don't tell me
He created life . And that means he has the right to kill it because?
He owns you. And that ownership comes from ?
He can . Might makes right ?
Quote:I am merely pointing out the logical conclusions if morality is subjective.
No your not your masking empty assertions and being called out for it
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 30, 2017 at 8:45 am
(This post was last modified: June 30, 2017 at 8:47 am by Angrboda.)
@Little Henry:
You make the same mistake that creationists do, assuming that by attacking an alternative explanation of the facts they will thereby be validating their own. It doesn't work that way as that presents a false dichotomy between your views and the alternative. You still have to defend your own view of objective morality if you want to claim that it exists.
"Is God's nature good because it is God's, or is God's nature good because it is morally good (i.e. it conforms to an independent standard of good)?" You see, playing the ontology card has gained you nothing. Just as the Euthyphro dilemma applies to Divine Command Theory, it also applies to the argument that morality is derived from God's nature. Either God's nature is arbitrarily good simply because it is God's, which results in an arbitrary set of morals which by definition is not moral. Or God's nature is good in that it conforms to a standard of goodness that is independent of God, making God's nature superfluous to the question of morals. You have accomplished nothing by your detour into ontology except to confuse the issue. God is still an unsatisfactory source of morality, and you're left empty handed, claiming the existence of objective morals that you can't explain.
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RE: Objective morality as a proper basic belief
June 30, 2017 at 11:02 am
(This post was last modified: June 30, 2017 at 11:24 am by Mister Agenda.)
Little Henry, you claim I don't believe in OM. How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Little Henry Wrote:You guys need to read more of Michael Ruse
"Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will—or in the metaphorical roots of evolution or any other part of the framework of the Universe. In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external grounding. Ethics is produced by evolution but is not justified by it because, like Macbeth’s dagger, it serves a powerful purpose without existing in substance.…Unlike Macbeth’s dagger, ethics is a shared illusion of the human race.16"
Again, if you dont believe in OMVs, then everytime you say acts like rape and torture are wrong, you are sufferring from an illusion.
You like Michael Ruse because he agrees with you about 'what atheists must think'. I don't agree with him, and I don't see him saying anything that compelling. As philosophers go, he's a mixed bag, and there are literally hundred of other atheist philosophers you could have turned to if your goal was to find nontheistic philosophical support for moral realism.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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