Emotions are intrinsically good and bad

[Transcended Dimensions]

All I am trying to say here is that, without those biochemical feelings, then there is no real good or bad value in my life.  This is the reality of my experience and not just some faulty logic or fallacies.

Yes. That part of what you said is real and not faulty or logically fallacious. It's also extremely obvious and trivially true. Far from profound.

A lot of the other stuff you have said is faulty and logically fallacious, however. You're a huge fan of non-sequiturs and false analogies.

From there, I was trying to apply my personal experience to everyone else through such logic/analogies.

[Edwardo Piet]

Yeah but I think it's extremely obvious that we each get our own meanings in life from our emotions.

Well, to be more accurate our emotions are our meanings. Not our value judgements... but I mean the only things that are meaningful are our emotions themselves.

(Of course I could easily be pedantic here again and repeat to you that just because a feeling isn't categorizable into a specific 'emotion' does not mean it is any less objectively and subjectively meaningful).

I am aware to a lot of people this is not obvious. But they aren't unenlightened like us LOL.

I mean... in reality it is obvious to them they just don't know it is. Again, they are not experiencing illusions but instead are experiencing delusions.

[Transcended Dimensions]

Yeah but I think it's extremely obvious that we each get our own meanings in life from our emotions.

Well, to be more accurate our emotions are our meanings. Not our value judgements... but I mean the only things that are meaningful are our emotions themselves.

(Of course I could easily be pedantic here again and repeat to you that just because a feeling isn't categorizable into a specific 'emotion' does not mean it is any less objectively and subjectively meaningful).

I am aware to a lot of people this is not obvious. But they aren't unenlightened like us LOL.

I mean... in reality it is obvious to them they just don't know it is. Again, they are not experiencing illusions but instead are experiencing delusions.

So, you would agree then that taking a drug would give your life the greatest good value since it would put you into a very powerful blissful state?  Said state of bliss is a positive feeling/emotion after all.

[bennyboy]

I think there's conflation posing as reasoning here: we use the word "good" to talk about feelings we like, and then say that feelings are intrinsically good.  Sure you could say that, since the experience of feelings is intrinsic to the human condition.  But a five year-old has already arrived at this understanding: "I feel happy when I eat a carrot, but my sister cries when my mother makes her eat carrots.  We like different things."

What's the position, and where's the value in holding it?  What am I missing here?

It's irrelevant when people disagree on the matter. Because 'objective' does not mean 'universal'.

Objectivity precisely means that disagreement is irrelevant because there are objectively right and wrong answers regardless of agreement or disagreement on the matter.

And the fact that definitions themselves cannot be proven to be objectively the right definitions is irrelevant too. Defintions are the premises. Scientists don't have to prove that they are using the 'right definitions' before it becomes objective. The words are picked out subjectively and they're used to label things in the world that really do have right and wrong answers. Definitions can NEVER be proved objectively to be the 'right definition'. You could make the common objections of people being able to prove that their own definition of objective morality was the right one... against anything. The point is whether ANY definition maps correctly onto the real world. The fact people disagree over definitions is irrelevant.

You've missed the point. It's not about choosing the "right" definition. It's the fact that we are begging the question: defining good and bad IN TERMS OF how we feel, and then acting deepity when we find that feelings are intrinsically good or bad. It's like defining a table as an object a flat top, and then saying that a table is intrinsically flat.

In the case of feelings, when we say they are "good," it means that we like the feeling and would like to have more of it. We define feeling good in those positive motivational terms. Defining something as A, and then finding that the thing possesses the quality of A, is not very useful, although with enough words it can sound deepity enough to impress young hippies.

[brewer]

So, you would agree then that taking a drug would give your life the greatest good value since it would put you into a very powerful blissful state?  Said state of bliss is a positive feeling/emotion after all.

Apparently you've never experienced both the good and bad faces of drugs.

https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Set_and_setting

[Transcended Dimensions]

When I am in my most miserable/hopeless state, then it is really like I am blinded by darkness. I truly cannot see the good values and beauty of this life and neither can I be in a state of love or joy since it is like I am blindfolded. But the moment I fully recover, then that is like taking the blindfold off or clearing up the darkness. Likewise, then I feel a positive emotion and cannot feel any negative emotion for the time being, then it is like I am blinded by the light. I cannot see anything bad and neither can I be in a state of misery, despair, anger, sadness, torment, etc. since it is like I am filled with the light of joy and beauty in my life. It doesn't matter what I tell myself otherwise, believe otherwise, or judge otherwise; positive emotions do not allow me to see the bad values in this life and negative emotions do not allow me to see the good values in this life. Having no emotions at all (anhedonia) would put me in a state where I can neither see the good nor bad values in this life. My life would, therefore, be completely neutral since there would be no value in my life at all.

One last thing here. Since positive emotions are objectively (always) good value judgments and since negative emotions are objectively bad value judgments, then our non emotional (reasoning) form of value judgments would have to be objectively neutral value judgments. This means that we cannot make any real value judgments independent of our emotions. If you felt nothing but a positive emotion from getting high off of drugs and you believed these drugs to be bad since they would harm you in the long run, but you could not feel any negative emotion from judging these drugs as bad, then we wouldn't define this as a bad value judgment.

We would instead say that you had nothing more than the idea going through your mind of these drugs being harmful, but that these drugs were truly nothing bad from your perspective. The same idea applies to wanting and liking. Our positive emotions are an objective form of wanting and liking and our negative emotions would have to be an objective form of not wanting, disliking, as well as a negative form of wanting since there can be a negative form of wanting such as wanting to harm someone, wanting to escape from danger, or wanting to just give up on life.

Of course, the positive form of wanting would be something such as a feeling of excitement or joy from getting your new favorite movie. But like I was saying, the only way something can matter to you is if you want it, like it. not want it, or dislike it. Otherwise, nothing could truly matter to you at all regardless of what you believe otherwise. Since our positive emotions are an objective form of wanting and liking and since our negative emotions are an objective form of not wanting, disliking, and a negative form of wanting, then there can be no subjective form of wanting, liking, not wanting, and disliking just as how there can be no subjective form of value judgments as I've stated earlier. Subjective refers to our thoughts and the objective refers to our emotions. Having no emotions would have to be an objective form of no wanting, liking, not wanting, disliking, and a negative form of wanting since we are talking an objectively neutral emotion (no emotion).

From here, states of mind that possess a real positive quality are what make things matter to us in good ways while states of mind that possess a real negative quality are what make things matter to us in bad ways. Therefore, this means that nothing can matter to us in good ways as long as we are feeling a negative emotion and nothing can matter to us in bad ways as long as we are feeling a positive emotion since positive and negative emotions are the only real positive and negative quality states of mind we can have. Having no emotions at all would be a state of mind where nothing could truly matter to us one way or the other at all. Lastly, here is the study which points to objective wanting and liking (our positive emotions) as being the reward wanting and liking:

We have found a special hedonic hotspot that is crucial for reward 'liking' and 'wanting' (and codes reward learning too). The opioid hedonic hotspot is shown in red above. It works together with another hedonic hotspot in the more famous nucleus accumbens to generate pleasure 'liking'.

‘Liking’ and ‘wanting’ food rewards: Brain substrates and roles in eating disorders

Kent C. Berridge 2009 Mar 29.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2717031/

[bennyboy]

TD, are you trying to battle depression with a positive outlook?

[Transcended Dimensions]

TD, are you trying to battle depression with a positive outlook?

Yes.  I am hoping that a positive mindset alone can somehow possess a real positive quality in my life to give my life real good value.  So far, I have witnessed no such thing.  My depression was miserable states due to emotional trauma.  This means my depression wasn't clinical depression (a mood disorder).

[Whateverist]

It's irrelevant when people disagree on the matter. Because 'objective' does not mean 'universal'.

Objectivity precisely means that disagreement is irrelevant because there are objectively right and wrong answers regardless of agreement or disagreement on the matter.

And the fact that definitions themselves cannot be proven to be objectively the right definitions is irrelevant too. Defintions are the premises. Scientists don't have to prove that they are using the 'right definitions' before it becomes objective. The words are picked out subjectively and they're used to label things in the world that really do have right and wrong answers. Definitions can NEVER be proved objectively to be the 'right definition'. You could make the common objections of people being able to prove that their own definition of objective morality was the right one... against anything. The point is whether ANY definition maps correctly onto the real world. The fact people disagree over definitions is irrelevant.

You've missed the point.  It's not about choosing the "right" definition.  It's the fact that we are begging the question: defining good and bad IN TERMS OF how we feel, and then acting deepity when we find that feelings are intrinsically good or bad.  It's like defining a table as an object a flat top, and then saying that a table is intrinsically flat.

In the case of feelings, when we say they are "good," it means that we like the feeling and would like to have more of it.  We define feeling good in those positive motivational terms.  Defining something as A, and then finding that the thing possesses the quality of A, is not very useful, although with enough words it can sound deepity enough to impress young hippies.

If I knew how to place something in the posting hall of fame, this would already be there.  Kudos to you, sir.  Kudos I say.

---

TD, are you trying to battle depression with a positive outlook?

Yes.  I am hoping that a positive mindset alone can somehow possess a real positive quality in my life to give my life real good value.  So far, I have witnessed no such thing.  My depression was miserable states due to emotional trauma.  This means my depression wasn't clinical depression (a mood disorder).

Have you heard the good news?  Depression is no more eternal than was your time pre-depression.  Doesn't help it go away but once you've gotten treatment, maybe you can just be patient and allow yourself to do a few low-key, non-downer activities to while away the time while you regain your equilibrium.  Keep your expectations low.  Nothing that used to make you euphoric before will 'work' if you expect the same now.  But gradually you may find some little bit of interest return to walking, reading or whatever.  Go with it, nothing lasts forever.

[bennyboy]

TD, are you trying to battle depression with a positive outlook?

Yes.  I am hoping that a positive mindset alone can somehow possess a real positive quality in my life to give my life real good value.  So far, I have witnessed no such thing.  My depression was miserable states due to emotional trauma.  This means my depression wasn't clinical depression (a mood disorder).

Okay, that's good.  I don't agree with your semantics, but if you can adopt a world view that allows you to function and see value in life, then I support that.

I had problems with depression, and I went through a lot of that, too.  In the end, the following helped:
1)  Achieving goals.  This helped me feel better about myself and feel more in control in life.  Depression isn't sadness, it's a feeling of powerlessness.  So I'd start with even just getting out of bed or cleaning my room, writing a song or a poem, or attempting to interact in a pleasant way with other people. Finding someone even worse off than you and trying to help them really works. I'd say your posts here represent a real achievement-- an expression of your feelings and ideas-- so that's a very good thing.
2)  Philosophy.  Thinking about the world a lot helped put it in new perspectives.  Being mentally flexible opened up my world a lot.
3)  Time.  Yep.  Just getting older meant my hormones changed, my experience flattened out that up-and-down manic effect, and I stopped trying to fight with reality.


Your problem right now, if you have one, might be the very last thing.  If your positive outlook isn't based on acceptance but on building up an emotional fantasy, then eventually cognitive dissonance will cause you to break down.

I'm not saying that's you, but be careful about that.

/advice