Enlightened rants...

[Mystic]

I think if God revealed himself to you or made you ascend the realms and guided you by trustworthy holy guides in that, you would still disbelief and would grow in disbelief.  I know I disbelieved despite proofs presented to me and him revealing himself to me. 

At the end, a heart that is rebellious and does not submit, won't accept proofs and will always raise the bar.  And a heart that accepts proofs, will believe, and the more higher proofs are presented would just increase in certainty, but sufficient signs that do prove the truth are enough to be certain.

If god showed up in the flesh, I would believe it existed.  That's all it would take.  I don't know that it would be worthy of worship - that would require a being much more benevolent than anything in the Bible or Quran.  But it's going to have to SHOW UP.  Without a human to speak for it, without a book.

Yet God is the witness to all things by which you exist through his perception and has never been absent so as the need to show up (yes he can become more apparent to someone but none the less, to a degree will remain hidden as he is beyond all vision), and is the proof of what everything is, so as to need a proof for him (which he does have and has plenty of).

[WinterHold]

Some book, some god.  Lowly human worm that I am, I'm capable of communicating a message without a barrage of loons to "interpret" it.  This is somehow beyond the ability of a god.

Go get one of those guides, Mystic.  Bring them here.  If that's a requirement then I can't fathom why you would waste your time confusing the message.  If some person fails to recognize the glorious truth, it will be your involvement that creates this problem.

12 of these guides left their legacy, starting from Mohammad down to Hassan Al-Askari.  As for the current guide, the explanation of his hiding, you see is an important subject. But suffice to say, is that 12 of these Guides were present, as for the first, he was a Messenger as well, and people fought him till it backfired and he defeated them, as for his successors, they were oppressed and fabrications were mixed with the truth of their words even during the time.

That is why reflection is key. When people are sincere enough to reflect over Quran through ahadith, but rely on Quran and don't believe anything not found in it, than everything will become easy, otherwise, everyone can attribute lies to the leader of time which happened in the past.

How to distinguish falsehood from truth, that is the purpose of the FURQAN (another name for Quran, means separator of falsehood and truth, good and evil), but all this must take reflection.

Obviously Atlas and I disagree on how to reflect, he dismisses verses of the past to be just stories of the past with little application to us. I see a constant way of God through the way of the pass, through reasoning in the past, that must apply to the present, and to the future.

The Mahdi is in Quran. That I am sure.

---

And while he disconnects 4:59, from verse 5:12, I see a flow of Surah to Surah, topic to topic, and leadership is talked about in Quran throughout, whether the false type or the true type (the Divinely appointed type).

Especially :

Obviously Atlas and I disagree on how to reflect, he dismisses verses of the past to be just stories of the past with little application to us. I see a constant way of God through the way of the pass, through reasoning in the past, that must apply to the present, and to the future.

Seriously; huh?
And; you didn't answer my question:

Quote: AtlasS33 said:

   Answer any of these.
   And no gymnastics or textual walls ! no implicit answers!
   Just give me one verse, across the 600 pages of the Quran that mentions any of the 5 questions' answers.


  
   AtlasS33 said:

   I'll give you many options; all prove your religion if you answer them:
   1- A verse mentioning "Ali" by the name.
   2-A verse mentioning "Hasaen" by the name.
   3-A verse mentioning "Hussain" by the name.
   4-A verse mentioning the 12 divine imams that we must follow
   5-A verse mentioning the last imam that you and your cult believe will rule the universe or whatever -Imam Mahdy-

[drfuzzy]

If god showed up in the flesh, I would believe it existed.  That's all it would take.  I don't know that it would be worthy of worship - that would require a being much more benevolent than anything in the Bible or Quran.  But it's going to have to SHOW UP.  Without a human to speak for it, without a book.

Yet God is the witness to all things by which you exist through his perception and has never been absent so as the need to show up (yes he can become more apparent to someone but none the less, to a degree will remain hidden as he is beyond all vision), and is the proof of what everything is, so as to need a proof for him (which he does have and has plenty of).

"God is the witness" then let him show up and witness.  "You exist through his perception" -- are you fucking kidding me?  Do you exist through the Tooth Fairy's perception?  Do you exist because Santa Claus wrote that you're a "good boy" on his list?   Do you exist because Batman gave you a secret decoder ring?  Of course not.  I exist without the "perception" of your imaginary friend.   If your imaginary friend is "beyond all vision" then it is not omnipotent.  Claiming that your personal "Harvey" big blue invisible rabbit is the proof of what everything is - well, that's kind of scary, although it might feel good for you to say so.  MY "everything that is" is not an invisible blue rabbit.  If your big blue rabbit has proof, then it can provide proof.  Without you.  If it can't, it doesn't exist.  And you are wasting your life.

[Mystic]

drfuzzy, all it takes is one time to hear one God's verses as they are meant to be heard, and the falsehood, all of it comes crumbling down and the truth manifest. But the best way to do that is read Quran. Quran has no wasted space, like my typing a lot of stuff you hate to read.

I am not saying go to Quran believing it is true, I am saying, what can you lose to reflect over it. At the very least, you will know where I am coming from and even if you actual real problems in it's philosophy or contradictions in it's teachings, you can show it.

As for me, I find every single thing not from God that talks about guidance to humans end up not only contradicting itself but contradicting their own thesis regarding guidance and become hypocritical in that regard, and yet people follow these people and books that contradict themselves at their fundamental essential level of teachings in a clear contradiction.

I find Quran the only non-contradictory book pertaining to guidance. If you find me one book or can write a book better in guidance, or just get a book guiding humans without contradictions, I will abandon my faith.

But I guarantee you cannot, because a book pertaining to guidance cannot be limiting the potential of a human and hence must be written in a way that guides him constantly through his life. That is nature of something that God alone can write, while leaders appointed God to become just helpers "to understand my word" regarding the founder recitation and explanation of it. At the end, their leadership and authority just come down to that whether spiritually in the unseen realms and kingdom or by their physical words with physical sounds or physical writing.

[downbeatplumb]

I find Quran the only non-contradictory book pertaining to guidance. If you find me one book or can write a book better in guidance, or just get a book guiding humans without contradictions,  I will abandon my faith.

Anything by Terry Pratchett, full of knowledge humour and wisdom. Particularly small gods. but any really.

[WinterHold]

12 of these guides left their legacy, starting from Mohammad down to Hassan Al-Askari.  As for the current guide, the explanation of his hiding, you see is an important subject. But suffice to say, is that 12 of these Guides were present, as for the first, he was a Messenger as well, and people fought him till it backfired and he defeated them, as for his successors, they were oppressed and fabrications were mixed with the truth of their words even during the time.

That is why reflection is key. When people are sincere enough to reflect over Quran through ahadith, but rely on Quran and don't believe anything not found in it, than everything will become easy, otherwise, everyone can attribute lies to the leader of time which happened in the past.

How to distinguish falsehood from truth, that is the purpose of the FURQAN (another name for Quran, means separator of falsehood and truth, good and evil), but all this must take reflection.

Obviously Atlas and I disagree on how to reflect, he dismisses verses of the past to be just stories of the past with little application to us. I see a constant way of God through the way of the pass, through reasoning in the past, that must apply to the present, and to the future.

The Mahdi is in Quran. That I am sure.

---

And while he disconnects 4:59, from verse 5:12, I see a flow of Surah to Surah, topic to topic, and leadership is talked about in Quran throughout, whether the false type or the true type (the Divinely appointed type).

You really don't get it, do you?  We tell you that no "guide" or imam or preacher or priest or rabbi or witch doctor or fortuneteller should EVER be needed by any deity to get out its message.  If the deity can't speak for itself, it doesn't exist.  We tell you that no book written by "revelation" has any value.  So your answer?  Another craptastic gibberish wall of text from your silly book.   I don't care what silly fantasies you pull out of your idiotic book of ancient fairy tales.

Dictators in the Middle East adore Sunni/Shiite Islamists, because thet give them this sense of control: this meaning of control; if you believe in "guided Imams" or "a coming Mehdi"; you will be a puppet and you will work as a hammer demolishing your own society.

This bloody incident took place because of such destructive beliefs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_seizure

And this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Mo...ccusations

The faiths practiced are built on blood; built on vengeance and grudge. The 12 Imam that MK worships; are worshiped by the government of Iran too; causing a very severe friction in the ladder of authority, one friction that we should never see in the 21st century.

Imagine a person who differs from you only in terms of family name; gets to become higher in rank than the president himself. Just mad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saud

Sad..just sad.

[Mystic]

The way to follow the Imams is not necessarily the way of those who claim to follow the Imams just as the way to follow Quran is not necessarily the way of those who claim to follow Quran.

Every human has to recognize this with EVERY religion they go study.

What is common to all the Muslims that you hate so much is the Quran. Yet you don't find a problem with Quran.  I don't see why the same doesn't apply to following the 12 Successors of the Navigating Leadership of Mohammad.

[JackRussell]

Why not develop yourself, with human compassion, empathy and rationalism.

No old books needed. We are social animals, with flaws. It is clear religion hasn't tamed those flaws, so I say, try harder for rational approaches to life's difficult questions.

I don't hate any holy book per se; just see them as entirely irrelevant.

And a book that calls itself the final revelation; well, that's a very dangerous route to shutting down all thought, moral or otherwise.

[WinterHold]

What is common to all the Muslims that you hate so much is the Quran.

Have some balls and don't take cover behind stuff that has nothing to do with the shit you're raining in your posts !

What Quran ? are the walls of texts you post part of the Quran?

[The Grand Nudger]

12 of these guides left their legacy, starting from Mohammad down to Hassan Al-Askari.  

-abbreviated because who gives a shit?

So that's a big giant no, then, huh.  You tell us we need guides, the guides then fail to materialize. What's the point?