Enlightened rants...

[The Grand Nudger]

We might differ in faith, me you and him, but we shouldn't differ on investigation technique and on quoting what the religion says.
In other words; if verses of hell exist, you raise lots of alarms when you cherry pick verses about heaven only to prove a claim or an opinion.

God might guide you, and he might not. You might feel convinced and you might not; too. I have nothing to do in such thing; all I can do is to explain the best I can.

-and if verses exist quantifying the value of a woman as precisely half that of a man...we should bullshit ourselves and anyone listening by pretending that they don't exist and posting a wall of other shit from the same poor hodge podge of abrahamic myth and native superstition.

[WinterHold]

We might differ in faith, me you and him, but we shouldn't differ on investigation technique and on quoting what the religion says.
In other words; if verses of hell exist, you raise lots of alarms when you cherry pick verses about heaven only to prove a claim or an opinion.

God might guide you, and he might not. You might feel convinced and you might not; too. I have nothing to do in such thing; all I can do is to explain the best I can.

-and if verses exist quantifying the value of a woman as precisely half that of a man...we should bullshit ourselves and anyone listening by pretending that they don't exist and posting a wall of other shit from the same poor hodge podge of abrahamic myth and native superstition.

Bring the verse?
It doesn't say that? It only gives men the double in inheritance because men are demanded to spend on women anyways if they want to get married, another verse makes the testimony of women two in cases of testimony on debt, so if one forgot the calculations of wealth ,the other remind her. This sentence is mostly due to the distance Arab women have from economy and cash; women in general tended to stay a little bit further from economy until this age. Ask 18th century Yanks.

---

We might differ in faith, me you and him, but we shouldn't differ on investigation technique and on quoting what the religion says.
In other words; if verses of hell exist, you raise lots of alarms when you cherry pick verses about heaven only to prove a claim or an opinion.

God might guide you, and he might not. You might feel convinced and you might not; too. I have nothing to do in such thing; all I can do is to explain the best I can.

If it was not clear to you: I do not need faith, Religion is not and will never be an investigative tool to us humans, I do not need a god to tell me to be a peaceful person, Never did. I am good frriends with catholics, protestants, gipsies (good luck trying to assassinate me), muslims, blacks all kinds of stupid labels, exception for those assholes, regardless of religion, creed, political stance, are so.

As to gods guiding me?nI am a man of my will, while I am not powerfull as a god, I have will.

Do you?

Of course I have will.
I can disbelief right here right now. I can also wear whatever skin I want. I can ignore religion all of a sudden, I can do anything I want.

Why is it hard to accept that some theists actually have total freedom; and actually chose what they believe in? Chose their skin willingly.
Being not cool with clubs is a great thing. I never belonged anywhere too; that's why I sit here, out of place and time. Think for yourself; that's the advice I would give.

But if your soul chose religion; don't shut the door on it. Humans change their minds always.

[The Grand Nudger]

Bring the verse?

Nope...you totally know the quran, remember?  I don't need to.

It doesn't say that? It only gives men the double in inheritance because men are demanded to spend on women anyways if they want to get married, another verse makes the testimony of women two in cases of testimony on debt, so if one forgot the calculations of wealth ,the other remind her. This sentence is mostly due to the distance Arab women have from economy and cash; women in general tended to stay a little bit further from economy until this age. Ask 18th century Yanks.

See, mounds of bullshit about other parts of magic book plus some Great Satan™ for good measure.

You're a liar. You lie to yourself first, and so it's not surprising that you lie to me. I forgive you, and I understand...I wouldn't follow magic book either.

[WinterHold]

Bring the verse?

Nope...you totally know the quran, remember?  I don't need to.

It doesn't say that? It only gives men the double in inheritance because men are demanded to spend on women anyways if they want to get married, another verse makes the testimony of women two in cases of testimony on debt, so if one forgot the calculations of wealth ,the other remind her. This sentence is mostly due to the distance Arab women have from economy and cash; women in general tended to stay a little bit further from economy until this age. Ask 18th century Yanks.

See, mounds of bullshit about other parts of magic book plus some Great Satan™ for good measure.

You're a liar.  You lie to yourself first, and so it's not surprising that you lie to me.  I forgive you, and I understand...I wouldn't follow magic book either.

If it's bullshit; why are you bothering to discuss in the first place?
What is the agenda; or what makes you discuss?

Personally; I discuss to find out if this faith I'm holding can be cracked. Until now, after years of discussions, it makes sense more than anything else.
Also I expect, based on the faith I carry, that the God I pray to will reward me with something big.

What about you? Is it just keyboard Jihadi syndrome, aka (anti theist) kind of thing?

Read the book, then discuss. You didn't read a word; so discussion is a waste of time, sorry.
Read and reply. Until today you rarely replied to a verse I'm posting. If you don't wanna read it; then why discuss it in the first place?

[pocaracas]

Personally; I discuss to find out if this faith I'm holding can be cracked. Until now, after years of discussions, it makes sense more than anything else.
Also I expect, based on the faith I carry, that the God I pray to will reward me with something big.

Really?

Hmmm.... so, why resign yourself to some belief in an unknowable thing instead of sticking purely with the known things and trying to find out what we can about the Universe we live in?... and, if possible, whatever lies beyond the Universe...
Until it is actually knowable, withholding belief seems to me to be most intellectually honest position.


Tell me, concerning that reward you expect... why would you expect to be rewarded merely for blindly believing what others told you about that god?
Do you think a hypothetical god that made mankind into the thinking reasoning intelligent beings that we are would be happy if we just mindlessly followed what some people wrote or said about it?

[WinterHold]

Personally; I discuss to find out if this faith I'm holding can be cracked. Until now, after years of discussions, it makes sense more than anything else.
Also I expect, based on the faith I carry, that the God I pray to will reward me with something big.

Really?

Hmmm.... so, why resign yourself to some belief in an unknowable thing instead of sticking purely with the known things and trying to find out what we can about the Universe we live in?... and, if possible, whatever lies beyond the Universe...
Until it is actually knowable, withholding belief seems to me to be most intellectually honest position.


Tell me, concerning that reward you expect... why would you expect to be rewarded merely for blindly believing what others told you about that god?
Do you think a hypothetical god that made mankind into the thinking reasoning intelligent beings that we are would be happy if we just mindlessly followed what some people wrote or said about it?

So many facts in this life are believed in and taken for granted, without anybody actually seeing them.
Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Air, Gravity...etc. The list extends; but the point is that if something's effect is undeniable, one tends to believe it's there.

Science call it "cause and effect". That gives birth to the "argument from design" which I, and so many other theists believe in.
To some, the effects are an deniable reference to a cause.

I believe what Mohammed said about that cause being "God".
You don't. But does that give you the right to discuss something that you didn't read? that makes you quite biased. it's a matter of perspective when you think about it; on the most basic of levels: there is a design. Some say it's created, some say it's not. I say it's created. Case closed.

[Mystic]

I refuse to fear God for the sake of love of myself.  If I Worship God for my self-interest than the worthy goal (God) of life in itself and myself are equated and that would be Shirk. That would be valuing myself on par with God.

If I fear God, it would be out of the knowledge that he cares and loves, and does not want me to enter hell out of his absolute compassion and love, and it would be due to the preference of him forgiving and rewarding over that of vengeance and punishing. And it would be due to not wanting to be ungrateful to his guidance to us, through the reminder and it's family, not because I hate the idea of being ungrateful as injustice to myself, but because I find God worthy of love of praise and gratitude and that his gift of guidance towards him and making his beautiful names the means to him, is the greatest grace that reflects his great nature.

My creed is that of love, and any fear is only from it.

[pocaracas]

Really?

Hmmm.... so, why resign yourself to some belief in an unknowable thing instead of sticking purely with the known things and trying to find out what we can about the Universe we live in?... and, if possible, whatever lies beyond the Universe...
Until it is actually knowable, withholding belief seems to me to be most intellectually honest position.


Tell me, concerning that reward you expect... why would you expect to be rewarded merely for blindly believing what others told you about that god?
Do you think a hypothetical god that made mankind into the thinking reasoning intelligent beings that we are would be happy if we just mindlessly followed what some people wrote or said about it?

So many facts in this life are believed in and taken for granted, without anybody actually seeing them.
Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Air, Gravity...etc. The list extends; but the point is that if something's effect is undeniable, one tends to believe it's there.

The known things I mentioned are not restricted to the seen things.
And I'm not advocating a purely solipsist view of the world... just one that makes practical sense.

Science call it "cause and effect". That gives birth to the "argument from design" which I, and so many other theists believe in.
To some, the effects are an deniable reference to a cause.

Yeah... but... the argument from design proposes a designer, a conscious entity responsible for designing what we call Nature.
The cause and effect from Science only considers causes and effects we can measure. If we can't measure, science can make educated guesses, but they only become accepted when they actually get measured. No need to hold beliefs in the guesses, but it makes the proponents feel good.
Until recently, scientists were hunting for the Higgs Boson. The theory required its existence. The measurements were not providing it. A few years ago, after a costly upgrade to the LHC, it was found. The theory turned out to be correct.
Had the boson not been found, much of the known particle physics had to be reviewed. As it turned out, the edifice stands. No need to believe that the particle exists, it has been shown to exist and the description of how to achieve the same result can be found in the literature.

The designer has been believed in for ages... still hasn't been found and shown to exist. When should we just give up and say it's not there?

I believe what Mohammed said about that cause being "God".
You don't. But does that give you the right to discuss something that you didn't read? that makes you quite biased. it's a matter of perspective when you think about it; on the most basic of levels: there is a design. Some say it's created, some say it's not. I say it's created. Case closed.

If some people say one thing and others say a different thing, then none of you know what you're talking about. Case pretty much not closed.
I'm not here to discuss things written in books. I'm here to discuss ideas. You are alluding to the God idea, as the designer of this Universe.
At its most fundamental core, that is what a monotheist god is, right?
An entity from beyond our Universe, from beyond our space-time, which designed and built our Universe.
From the scientific point of view, that is a hypothesis that, if we can somehow measure things beyond our Universe, should be available for scrutiny. What does "beyond our Universe" mean, however... is a question for others...
From present day (and past) perspective, however, the question must be: how would anyone that lived far before the telescope was invented have come to possess any information about what lies beyond the Universe?
You may answer this question with some "spiritual connection" to that entity.... but that then raises the other question of "how".
I may tentatively answer that question with a pre-existing belief within a population that has a propensity to accept the divine as an explanation..... which makes us ask, from where did such propensity come? And one can also tentatively respond with the inability to understand many of the natural events all around the early nomadic humans, but equipped with an inquiring mind, they came up with an out-of-view explanation... which grew... grew into being so important that communities would stay together around that concept, as it gave them hope for their future.... and whoever doubted the concept, was shunned from those communities, drastically diminishing their chances of survival and breeding, weeding out the doubting genes and enhancing the believing genes. Brain complexity and plasticity meant that such weeding out was slow.... too slow... eventually science came into the picture and the few who doubted felt vindicated in some of the new discoveries... and now.... now, doubting is not such a bad thing anymore, for most communities in Europe, at least.

I'm not going to say I firmly believe things happened how I tentatively outlined, but I can tell you that, based on the world I observe, based on the world I see represented by my fellow scientists, this tentative outline is, at least, plausible. It requires nothing more than what we already have available in the Natural world.
The extra entity that you believe in is not required... it appears as a relic from our ignorant past... so, from my point of view, why keep it around?
Sure, it's good to know about all the mythology that human kind has believed in, and, if someday it turns out that one of those mythologies was not so far from the mark, we'll give it its due credit, but for now, the requirement of belief is what draws me away from said belief.

[WinterHold]

I refuse to fear God for the sake of love of myself.  If I Worship God for my self-interest than the worthy goal (God) of life in itself and myself are equated and that would be Shirk. That would be valuing myself on par with God.

If I fear God, it would be out of the knowledge that he cares and loves, and does not want me to enter hell out of his absolute compassion and love, and it would be due to the preference of him forgiving and rewarding over that of vengeance and punishing. And it would be due to not wanting to be ungrateful to his guidance to us, through the reminder and it's family, not because I hate the idea of being ungrateful as injustice to myself, but because I find God worthy of love of praise and gratitude and that his gift of guidance towards him and making his beautiful names the means to him, is the greatest grace that reflects his great nature.

My creed is that of love, and any fear is only from it.

But the Quran tells you to fear him, out of care and love for the benefit of yourself:

Sura 31, The Quran:
( 12 )   And We had certainly given Luqman wisdom [and said], "Be grateful to Allah." And whoever is grateful is grateful for [the benefit of] himself. And whoever denies [His favor] - then indeed, Allah is Free of need and Praiseworthy.
( 13 )   And [mention, O Muhammad], when Luqman said to his son while he was instructing him, "O my son, do not associate [anything] with Allah. Indeed, association [with him] is great injustice."

And also; please answer these questions before you try to convince me with something else, because it's about a month now without an answer:

Answer any of these.
And no gymnastics or textual walls ! no implicit answers!
Just give me one verse, across the 600 pages of the Quran that mentions any of the 5 questions' answers.

https://atheistforums.org/thread-51114-p...pid1638653

AtlasS33 said:

I'll give you many options; all prove your religion if you answer them:
1- A verse mentioning "Ali" by the name.
2-A verse mentioning "Hasaen" by the name.
3-A verse mentioning "Hussain" by the name.
4-A verse mentioning the 12 divine imams that we must follow
5-A verse mentioning the last imam that you and your cult believe will rule the universe or whatever -Imam Mahdy-

[WinterHold]

So many facts in this life are believed in and taken for granted, without anybody actually seeing them.
Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Air, Gravity...etc. The list extends; but the point is that if something's effect is undeniable, one tends to believe it's there.

The known things I mentioned are not restricted to the seen things.
And I'm not advocating a purely solipsistic view of the world... just one that makes practical sense.

What are the known things you're referring to "in this comment"?
I revised the previous post and found nothing.
"solipsist" is another word I can't seem to understand or find a translation for.

Yeah... but... the argument from design proposes a designer, a conscious entity responsible for designing what we call Nature.
The cause and effect from Science only considers causes and effects we can measure. If we can't measure, science can make educated guesses, but they only become accepted when they actually get measured. No need to hold beliefs in the guesses, but it makes the proponents feel good.
Until recently, scientists were hunting for the Higgs Boson. The theory required its existence. The measurements were not providing it. A few years ago, after a costly upgrade to the LHC, it was found. The theory turned out to be correct.
Had the boson not been found, much of the known particle physics had to be reviewed. As it turned out, the edifice stands. No need to believe that the particle exists, it has been shown to exist and the description of how to achieve the same result can be found in the literature.

The designer has been believed in for ages... still hasn't been found and shown to exist. When should we just give up and say it's not there?

We stop expecting his existence when the design ceases to exist.
That's exactly what I described the argument from design to be: hence what I said:

I believe what Mohammed said about that cause being "God".

Nature, Gaia, "The Great Engineer", God, Krishna...etc are all names for the same conclusion across civilizations.
Logic says that science is only valid in our bubble of existence. Outside of this bubble, science has no meaning.

If some people say one thing and others say a different thing, then none of you know what you're talking about. Case pretty much not closed.

Then what is the use of logic, investigations, and all the hassle the UN and Law-Enforcement agencies give us?
Criminals always say they are innocent, unlike the prosecution attorney.

I'm not here to discuss things written in books. I'm here to discuss ideas. You are alluding to the God idea, as the designer of this Universe.
At its most fundamental core, that is what a monotheist god is, right?
An entity from beyond our Universe, from beyond our space-time, which designed and built our Universe.
From the scientific point of view, that is a hypothesis that, if we can somehow measure things beyond our Universe, should be available for scrutiny. What does "beyond our Universe" mean, however... is a question for others...
From present day (and past) perspective, however, the question must be: how would anyone that lived far before the telescope was invented have come to possess any information about what lies beyond the Universe?
You may answer this question with some "spiritual connection" to that entity.... but that then raises the other question of "how".
I may tentatively answer that question with a pre-existing belief within a population that has a propensity to accept the divine as an explanation..... which makes us ask, from where did such propensity come? And one can also tentatively respond with the inability to understand many of the natural events all around the early nomadic humans, but equipped with an inquiring mind, they came up with an out-of-view explanation... which grew... grew into being so important that communities would stay together around that concept, as it gave them hope for their future.... and whoever doubted the concept, was shunned from those communities, drastically diminishing their chances of survival and breeding, weeding out the doubting genes and enhancing the believing genes. Brain complexity and plasticity meant that such weeding out was slow.... too slow... eventually science came into the picture and the few who doubted felt vindicated in some of the new discoveries... and now.... now, doubting is not such a bad thing anymore, for most communities in Europe, at least.

Books are the main medium for ideas to be kept and also presented; it's the way humans copy their personal state of mind through the generations.
The belief springs from observing what is around the person since birth. That's what leads to the belief that there is a designer.

As for why he stays hidden in person; is given explanations across the different religions worldwide; and it's up to your choice to believe what you want, or disbelief altogether too.

I believe that it's very egotistical to think humanity can calculate and measure anything. The further time goes, the more we discover, and learn that so many things are bigger than us. Your brain is so limited in terms of storage. I don't think humans can even measure what God is.

Doubting Christianity is one thing; but stats prove that it is Muslims who are growing so much in Europe; not atheists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion

What is the fastest growing religion in Europe?

By 2030, Muslims are expected to make up 8% of Europe's population including an estimated 19 million in the EU (3.8%), including 13 million foreign-born Muslim immigrants. Islam is widely considered as the fastest growing religion in Europe due primarily to immigration and above average birth rates.

And in the whole world; actually. It seems like people need something that they didn't find in atheism and Christianity.