Changing ones mind about a subject

[Sal]

What makes someone change their mind about a subject?

I've given this some thought, and you'd think that contrasting evidence and solid argumentation would change people's beliefs on some level. But no, even with countless examples and solid argumentation people still cling to their beliefs and positions even though they've been shown otherwise.

A lot of stuff happens behind the curtains of the mind, and I think one should counter bullshit even though people will wave their hands against it, because I think that somewhere along the line they will, albeit subconsciously, alter their beliefs and positions because of new stuff they will encounter in the future. For example a kid that thinks lightning is caused by some supernatural agent, when taught about natural phenomena of lightning occurring, about electrical charge and so on, might at first hand discount it, because they still think Zeus or whatever is casting lightning bolts whenever there's lightning strikes.

It seems like it's an uphill battle, that after a belief or position is settled in, they're hard to shake off again or change.

[Edwardo Piet]

This is definitely very true:

I want to begin by reminding our readers—and myself—that exchanges like this aren’t necessarily pointless. Perhaps you need no encouragement on that front, but I’m afraid I do. In recent years, I have spent so much time debating scientists, philosophers, and other scholars that I’ve begun to doubt whether any smart person retains the ability to change his mind. This is one of the great scandals of intellectual life: The virtues of rational discourse are everywhere espoused, and yet witnessing someone relinquish a cherished opinion in real time is about as common as seeing a supernova explode overhead. The perpetual stalemate one encounters in public debates is annoying because it is so clearly the product of motivated reasoning, self-deception, and other failures of rationality—and yet we’ve grown to expect it on every topic, no matter how intelligent and well-intentioned the participants.

My bold.

Source: https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-...tes-lament

In my opinion when people do change their minds, they usually don't do it in the middle of a debate. In fact I've never seen that. I've never seen someone say "You win the debate your argument was valid and mine was invalid, you were right and I was wrong."

I've seen people apologize for something that isn't about being correct about something, but is instead about decency or conduct, and I've seen people admit a mistake that they say was accidental and unintended and they correct themselves. But since when does someone change their mind about their whole position in the middle of a debate or argument?

Have you EVER seen a theist or atheist who wasn't trolling and was being genuine lose or gain belief in God in a middle of a debate? No.

I think that people often in hindsight look back on people and arguments that have convinced them to change their mind but in reality those reasons might not be the real causes of what changed their mind. We are rationalizing beings, not rational beings, and I doubt anyone really knows the true causes of their behavior (and in fact science testifies to this), including belief. We're built to survive, not to be rational and even the most rational of us are probably far less rational than we think we are. As Sam Harris explains in this quote.

[Little lunch]

I change my mind about things often if presented with substantial evidence.
It's hard though. It feels like conceding defeat, especially if, like Sam Harris said, it's done in real time in front of the person who's giving you the information.
Often, they're not trying to educate you with your best interests in mind, rather, they are trying to defeat you and show how much greater their intelligence is than yours.
But once I realise I'm wrong about something, I have to confess that they are right, lest I be seen as a liar.
And then, sometimes that person will dangle this acknowledgement in front of your face forever.
Eg, remember that time when you thought....was.....and had to admit you were stupid.
This is why, in my opinion, some theists have their faith bolstered by savage atheists.
And sometimes I think atheists like that don't actually want to convert a theist.
They want to feel all smug and arrogant in their little minority demographic.

[Edwardo Piet]

Oh I forgot to say something else I was going to point out: When people do eventually change their minds it often seems to be when they can figure out a way to make it look like their own idea. People love feeling in control of their own minds (and lives). And in my experience when they credit someone else as being the person who changed their mind, it's almost always only someone they respect. If they can't find someone they respect or like to credit, they'll find a way to credit themselves for it.

We're far less rational than we think we are. I think a lot of these mental gymnastics -- done by both theists and atheists, and by both irrational and "rational" people -- is done subconsciously.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I've done a complete 180 on the subject of Northern Ireland. In my younger days, I took part in street riots under the delusion that it was the best way to reunite the island. Now, political violence is anathema to me, and I've accepted that a divided Ireland is the best political situation for everyone concerned. 

Boru

[GrandizerII]

In my opinion when people do change their minds, they usually don't do it in the middle of a debate. In fact I've never seen that. I've never seen someone say "You win the debate your argument was valid and mine was invalid, you were right and I was wrong."

I have witnessed members changing their view about some topic right in the middle of a debate, and conceding that their opponent had a point. I've seen this happen more than once in this forum. I have a good memory, and can name names to illustrate, but somehow I feel like it's not right to mention names (even if there's nothing shameful about any of them conceding to their opponent).

[vorlon13]

I had a huge shift following my first 12 Stepper meeting (intervention) and it stuck.

31 years so far.


In fact, the degree an intensity of that shift wasn't fully apparent to me at the time, my understanding and appreciation of it grew over time.

[Edwardo Piet]

In my opinion when people do change their minds, they usually don't do it in the middle of a debate. In fact I've never seen that. I've never seen someone say "You win the debate your argument was valid and mine was invalid, you were right and I was wrong."

I have witnessed members changing their view about some topic right in the middle of a debate, and conceding that their opponent had a point. I've seen this happen more than once in this forum. I have a good memory, and can name names to illustrate, but somehow I feel like it's not right to mention names (even if there's nothing shameful about any of them conceding to their opponent).

IMO you are just flat out wrong about what they're admitting they're wrong about. You never see people say "Your argument is correct and I now no longer believe in God" or "You are right and I am now a liberal rather than a conservative."

Remember this is not simply about people admitting they are wrong about some pedantic detail in a debate it's admitting they are wrong about something large enough for them to completely change their minds about one of their core beliefs or philosophies in the middle of a debate.

[Shell B]

My mind is usually changed by solid evidence and some time to let it sink in. Every time I changed my mind, I realized I had nothing good to refute the evidence with. At that point, you just have to concede.

[Edwardo Piet]

I've always noticed it tends to take time to sink in. Many people look back and credit what changed their mind but since when does someone go from theist to atheist or vice versa in the middle of a debate or change their mind about creationism and believe in evolution immediately after given evidence? People do seem to take their time. I guess beliefs wouldn't be very helpful if they were shaken too easily, it's probably somewhat important for our survival for the human psyche to not be so unstable as to quickly change its beliefs. After all beliefs are what lead to actions. I guess beliefs are similar to habits in this way? Hard to break but also hard to make.