Problems with atheism

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, all discussion of seeking out qualified help when you need it aside....... Something that you clearly didn't find to be important.

Yes, yes, god is very upset that you deny his existence.

[Godnose]

Scripture? Not yanking your chain this time.

You know I'm one well chosen piece of scripture away from blowing Jesus. Would be a shame to miss the opportunity.........

I don't know if you are addressing me but suspect you may well be. However you need to know that I have not the faintest idea what you are talking about, and don't understand how it is any way on topic.

i do know this. My honestly motivated objective of starting a thread in which to discuss any possible problems with atheism has been thoroughly and effectively sabotaged. Which is pretty typical of most fora I've been on, as they always seem to be dominated by a pack of intellectual snobs who insist on rigid conformity.

se la whatever.

Got to get some kip now, don't know if I'll be back.

Not if I've got any sense left, I won't.

Nighty night

[The Grand Nudger]

Yup, take a long break. I'll be here with my mouth open when you get back with that scripture.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

What do you consider a community? People who can actually see each other? I don't actually see my damn neighbors most days, or talk to them, and we're a "community". What makes this NOT a community?

Gee, Summer,for once I actually disagree with you.

Internet forums are not communities within my understanding of the word,

I have never met any of the people here and do not expect top. There is no real mutual support nor indeed any real intimacy.

Internet and other forms of social networking are poor substitutes for interacting in real life ,but an interesting addition..

I quite like some of the personalities here,others such as (most of) the godbotherers, I tolerate (and no doubt vice versa) However, I have no emotional attachment to anyone here.

To claim an internet forum is a community is in my opinion to use the word very loosely indeed. I looked it up in my Concise Oxford ,and it just doesn't fit the definition in my opinion.

I guess we may need to agree to differ.

[The Grand Nudger]

We fit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community

[thesummerqueen]

People in the "Jewish Community" who never see each other still belong in that "community."

The skeptic community communicates mostly online. They're a community, albeit loose-knit and made of many parts.

Instead of supporting each other through physical mediums, we've moved to online which has opened up a whole new world. The other night, I was talking to a Canadian, a guy in Kentucky, and a guy in Australia. Maybe you'd say we'd never see each other "in person" but there we were, online in a video chat, four members of the "Atheist Community" (specifically the "Atheist Forums Community") chillin' together doing shit and staring at each other's mugs.

[Faith No More]

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Godnose, the comments about being a sheep in wolf's clothing aren't really about your ideas in particular but more about us not really knowing your true views.

Read my posts. They are my true views. If you choose to believe they are not, that is your problem not mine.

We are weary of anyone that just jumps right in with ideas such as yours who haven't been around long enough for us to know you. Every week someone jumps in here spouting their ideas and condemning anyone who thinks differently.

Sorry - didn't realise it was an exclusive club. Thought it was all about freedom of expression and stuff. So all these people have been suggesting atheist churches, have they?

These people have no intentions of having meaningful debate or sticking around to have real discussion, so that makes us skeptical of people that don't try to get to know everyone here first before declaring their new ideas.

It's a forum not a WI club. People come and go. That's the nature of a forum.

Our reaction has little to do with your idea, and more to do with how you've presented it.

In that case I think you have a problem and suggest you re-think your attitude. Not everyone can be a literary genius!

Don't take it personally, but we get a lot of this around here.

Well if everyone gets slagged-off off as soon as they open their mouths then I'm not surprised people get miffed!

I do understand what you mean about many atheists lacking desire for spiritual growth, but that is a personal issue anyway, so I don't think a community would solve that.

It could help.

As far as moral guidance goes, I think you are making a false correlation between a position of authority and wisdom.

Nope. I asked for advice and got it. Basically I guess what I actually wanted was someone I could trust to be discreet who I could bounce my thoughts off. And I have found vicars etc to be pretty useful that way. Only it seems I "not allowed" to say anything nice about vicars because this is an atheist forum. At least that's the impression I'm getting, and it sucks.

Atheists don't need a dedicated advisor to dispense guidance and wisdom ....

putting words into my mouth here aren't you? When did I say anything about "wisdom"? I said "advice". Advice - advice, you know, that stuff you don't have to take if you don't want to.

Talking to clergy gives you a false sense of compassion anyway.

Not something one could say about fora!

The priest may genuinely care about you, but he does so because god told him to.

Er ... I though god doesn't exist. So how can he have been told it by god? Anyway, what's the problem? He still at least goes through the motions of caring, which is more than most folk do!

Meeting people who you can share things with is an important part of life, and just declaring someone a 'priest' is taking a shortcut to finding meaningful relationships.

Can't disagree with that. That's basically the idea isn't it? That a priest (whatever) is supposed to be a universal friend.

If you have trouble meeting people real life, as I do, there's always places like this on the internet.

If this is the only alternative then may the gods help us!

PS: Anyone got any problems with atheism? Or solutions?

All this stuff about how nice (or not) priests are is very interesting, but somewhat off topic IMHO.

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Wow, I totally tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and reasonably explain what was going on here. It seems, however, that you are more interested in copping an attitude and playing the victim than having a rational discussion.

Now I understand why you have trouble meeting people.

[Epimethean]

Electronic communing is no substitute for the real thing. I agree with padraic. It is an addition, but in many ways, it has come to supplant interest in the physical community in which people live. It is an interesting social phenomenon, though perhaps not surprising due to how easy it is to find interest groups (which is what I would call a forum) online versus finding such within close physical proximity to one's own locale.

I like you folk, which is why I would want to meet you, and if I could actually hang out with some of you on a regular basis, I damn sure would. This is as much as we get in general, but it is not as good as having a few beers and making eye contact, seeing smiles, letting the environment intrude at times.

Back to the OP, it really does sound as if you have made a personal problem manifest by throwing it out as a social one. Were atheists to need a physical space in which to congregate specifically because they are atheists and not because they share other interests, you might as well create another religion, which would utterly defeat the point.

[Welsh cake]

I'll go one step further than Cinjin, since Godnose has managed to contradict his own argument that religion needs to go, but religious establishments must stay, and that this atheist forum is clearly not a community; he is not just a religious poser, he's also a poe.

What a waste of oxygen. >.>

[Godnose]

Wow, I totally tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and reasonably explain what was going on here. It seems, however, that you are more interested in copping an attitude and playing the victim than having a rational discussion.

Now I understand why you have trouble meeting people.

Ah - I see I have totally misunderstood. I was under the impression that a forum is about exchanging thoughts and ideas. Clearly I was misled about that - one is merely supposed to agree with whoever happens to be there before you. I stand corrected.

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Back to the OP, it really does sound as if you have made a personal problem manifest by throwing it out as a social one. Were atheists to need a physical space in which to congregate specifically because they are atheists and not because they share other interests, you might as well create another religion, which would utterly defeat the point.

All so-called "social" problems are ultimately personal. The fire that burns a house down is personal to the householder, however the provision of a fire service is a social enterprise provided for the safety of the entire community. Similarly, the moral dilemmas faced by multitudes of individuals, if permitted to continue without the provision of any opportunity for solace, will lead to generalised social breakdown (of which there is much evidence already in our increasingly secular societies). If a secular society refuses to provide any substitute for activities which have traditionally been carried out by religion, then the result, after a period of chaos, will be the reinforcement of religion. People will be attracted by the services provided and will in many cases be prepared to adopt a religious ideology in order to obtain them.

This is common practice among atheists. Many people who profess atheism are nevertheless prepared to marry in church, often "for the sake of their families". Their argument is usually along the lines that it's only a game they are playing, as they are atheists it is no risk to them to go through such a meaningless ritual. However every wedding that is conducted by the clergy, whether or not the participants are actual believers, effectively reinforces the power of the religion. The only solution to this problem is to provide alternative, secular marriage services. This is already available throughout many parts of the UK from the Humanist Society but remains extremely limited in number and scope, and a similar principle needs to be extended over a greater range of services. in which I would include some form of morality counselling service similar to those currently provided by clergy (but without the god bits).

My purpose in wanting to provide alternative, atheist based facilities is specifically not to bolster religion or religiosity, but rather to subvert the need for religious-based structures by replacing them with atheist based ones.

The point of atheism is not to "defeat religion", the point of atheism is to refute the concept of a deity. This is a pragmatic problem and does not mean that all other aspects of religion are thereby precluded. Anyone who refuses to consider the coming together of atheists on the grounds that it runs the risk of forming another religion is subjecting themselves to dogma, and it is that which is most likely, in the end, to "utterly defeat the point" of atheism.

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... The other night, I was talking to a Canadian, a guy in Kentucky, and a guy in Australia. Maybe you'd say we'd never see each other "in person" but there we were, online in a video chat, four members of the "Atheist Community" (specifically the "Atheist Forums Community") chillin' together doing shit and staring at each other's mugs.

Oh yeah, the so-called "global village". Wow, you can TALK to someone in some other part of the world. Big deal. How's that going to help stop your house burning down if it catches fire?

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I'll go one step further than Cinjin, since Godnose has managed to contradict his own argument that religion needs to go, but religious establishments must stay,

This is the usual word-twisting I so often experience on these forums. Some services traditionally carried out by religion are essential for society, and if a stable secular society is to ever be achieved it will be necessary to incorporate similar services in order to maintain similar essential services. There is no contradiction here.

and that this atheist forum is clearly not a community; he is not just a religious poser, he's also a poe.

Utter rubbish. Of course this forum is not a community, except in a most glib sense of the word. And as for me being fundamentalist, it's not me that's laying down all these dogmatic restrictions on freedom of thought!

What a waste of oxygen. >.>

Your choice. No-one's forcing you.