What is your opinion about Communism?

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Except there is almost nothing communistic in the modern “communist” China,

According to what definition of communism? China is still communist in a lot of ways.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Yeah, also, capitalism rocks?
"privatization of prison"

[Patrick33]

The hard left is better than the hard right, although somewhere approaching the centre, preferably from the left hand side is best - in my opinion.

[Anomalocaris]

Except there is almost nothing communistic in the modern “communist” China,

According to what definition of communism? China is still communist in a lot of ways.

Like what?

Authoritarian and statist?  Those are hardly uniquely communist traits.

One party rule and lack of freedom of press?   Those are hardly uniquely communist either.

These traits are common to all the successful Asian economies during the stage where they progressed from rural backwardness to fully developed status.    None of those others were communist, in fact all of them were quite anti-communist during that stage.

Guaranteed employment and cradle to grave welfare state?  Nope, they dismantled that completely.   There is even less social safety net in the nominally communist and socialist China than there is in the US.

Pay lip service to Marxism and socialism?  So what?  They call capitalism in china with private factories,  stock markets and no social safety net “socialism with Chinese characteristics”.  

Let’s see what are the uniquely defining communist traits.  1. public ownership of land, housing and means of production?   Not in china.  In China 2/3 of the industry and manufacturing is privately owned.   Housing and land are technically government owned, but that’s a sham as the government then sell “exclusive usage rights” to the land and real estate which can be bought and sold, inherited, and entitles the holder of the right to use the land just like if he holds the deed to the land in the US.   2. Capital allocation are centrally planned?  Not in china,  In China most of the capital are allocated via capital markets like stock exchanges.  Even nominally state owned enterprises are traded on the stock exchange to raise funds.

So in China, besides the fact that party delegates still sing the Internationale at the beginning of the party congress every 5 years, and the hammer and sickle is still occasionally seen, nothing else reflects any defining attributes of communism.

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The hard left is better than the hard right, although somewhere approaching the centre, preferably from the left hand side is best - in my opinion.

That depends on how one defines left and right.

If Stalinist Russia or Pol Pot’s Cambodia is classified as hard left than scarcely can hard right top these in repulsiveness.

Also, one should not define a pragmatic and effective structure by relation to the lunatic extremes on either side.   A pragmatic and effective structure stands on its own.

[WinterHold]

No. Advocating dictatorship like Marx did is something, Capitalistic systems are something else.
Communism is beating the rich kid and taking all their cash out of jealousy, hate and insane dreams of utopia. That's why the soviet union fell and the U.S survived.

Muslims saw what soviets mean in wars. Afghanistan, Chechnya, the leftovers of Syria now, Egypt's army...etc.
Communism is hell. It means a rifle and a boot to your teeth, just for having money.

Not all political systems are punishing those who are born wealthy like communism does. Not all systems enforce atheism on its citizens (slaves). Not all systems shoot you for praying in public.

At least we can pray and talk under capitalism.

Capital isn't the system, it's just a means of oiling the wheels.

"beating the rich kid and taking all their cash out of jealousy, hate and insane dreams of utopia." ... could also be said of the French Revolution.  Guillotines instead of rifles and jack boots.

"Muslims saw what soviets mean in wars. Afghanistan, Chechnya, the leftovers of Syria now..." are you claiming that Russia adopts a communist system?  Nope.  Think more like: White, Christian Oligarchy ... same as the US.

No; the French did exactly what I wrote as the right thing to do:

AtlasS33 said:
https://atheistforums.org/thread-52301-p...pid1663075

. Punishing and preventing robbing and stealing should be the main concern of anybody wanting economic justice. Communism is derived from the hatred of the poor working class to the rich owners, it's the revolution of the hungry. They should've punish thieves instead of punishing ANY wealthy individual.

Guillotines were a punishment for thieves that enslaved workers and took the money of the natives.
In communism; there is no investigation even. The system itself is designed to take your cash and call it "justice"

[DLJ]

...
The system itself is designed to take your cash and call it "justice"

What makes it "your" cash?

If one accepts the collective, then it's 'our' cash.  

Some people consider "What's in it for me?".  I've never operated that way.  My instinct is "What's in it for us?".

The "us" though is the key question... what is the unit of self-determination?



^^ This is what people think of when they revile Communism. But this is not a given.

[WinterHold]

Who said this? 🤔

"beating the rich kid and taking all their cash out of jealousy, hate and insane dreams of utopia."

It's more like, instead of letting resources get concentrated with a few people it is distributed evenly among everyone, if you want to better your life you can't ignore your starving neighbor...that kind of thing. 🤗

Below replies; there is the word "reply". Please use it so I get notified.
A person got born with that money. That money is non of our business, unless it was stolen or taken through a criminal act.

No need for justifying our hatred and jealousy of the rich by riding the "self righteous horse" that claims care about the hungry. If you care about the poor; feed them and protect their food. Don't raid the rich instead and take what they earned by birth; just like nationality, just like tribe; just like race.

If you were born poor; suck it up and go work to become wealthy. Don't steal and don't rob, then call it "justice". Raid the gangs that steal the cash and rob people.

Don't excite the tired needy with their own misery to gain some assets and manpower to use in stealing and robbing both the innocent and the criminal. That is the same exact manipulation of human rights, and raising the flag of pureness that many religious institutions does. Who are the government officials to strip me of cash my mother of father legally earned? That's a bank robber's mentality.

Matter in fact; communist governments are splendid gangsters.

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...
The system itself is designed to take your cash and call it "justice"

What makes it "your" cash?

If one accepts the collective, then it's 'our' cash.  

Some people consider "What's in it for me?".  I've never operated that way.  My instinct is "What's in it for us?".

The "us" though is the key question... what is the unit of self-determination?



^^ This is what people think of when they revile Communism.  But this is not a given.

The same thing that makes your "nationality", and the same thing that makes your mother your "mother"; the same thing that makes your race "your race".

It's a protocol that humans lived by for thousands of years. In a linguistic matter we call it "inheritance". Our children are our biological heirs and natural inheritance

[The Grand Nudger]

This is why those opposing capitalism often discover too late that there are far too many traitors in their midst for them to succeed.

Are there not too many "traitors" in our midst for capitalism to succeed, as well?  They certainly seem to be present in capitalism's greatest failures. Doesn't that strike you as a shared weakness? Whether the means are held publicly or privately, bad actors are a problem. This is also discovered late in capitalist models....like when the pipeline bursts, or the bank goes bust, or the bullets are fired. When the losses are socialized, after the privatization of profit.

[Anomalocaris]

This is why those opposing capitalism often discover too late that there are far too many traitors in their midst for them to succeed.

Are there not too many "traitors" in our midst for capitalism to succeed, as well?  They certainly seem to be present in capitalism's greatest failures.  Doesn't that strike you as a shared weakness?  Whether the means are held publicly or privately, bad actors are a problem.  This is also discovered late in capitalist models....like when the pipeline bursts, or the bank goes bust, or the bullets are fired.  When the losses are socialized, after the privatization of profit.

No. The problem isn’t capitalism doesn’t fail or fail spectacularly, nor that it contains no glaring inequities.   It is that, on the whole, capitalism seem to be able to offset its failures and inequities with enough persuasive successes such that when it is put before stakeholders in both capitalistic system and any alternatives that have been tried on a large scale, capitalism seem to gain more converts than its competitors on the strength of its track record of successes, despite it numerous failings.

For all of capitalism’s failures in the developed world in the last 25 years or so that put perhaps 100 million of the 600 million denizens of the wealthy economies of the first world in moderate danger of a moderate reduction in their first world standards of living, during that very same period capitalism lifted well over 600 million people in just China and India alone from abject subsistence poverty to an infinitely higher, modern standard of living for the first time with cars, modern housing, foreign vacations, and leisure time and discretionary purchasing power approaching those of the first world countries.

100 million first worlders facing reduced economic security, vs 600 million third world former subsistence farmers now within a stone’s throw of first world standards of living. I don’t think capitalism need worry over much about being undermined by more traitors in its own midst than amongst the ranks of its competitors.

[Whateverist]

RE: What is your opinion about Communism?


A: None for me, thank you. And while you're at it please clear away the pigs in the trough which are the product of our unchecked freerapeyou economics.