Why, God? Why?!

[The Grand Nudger]

Let me ask you: how does an omniscient, omnipresent entity, who (according to Steve’s accountings) experiences all points in time simultaneously, experience desire?  Desire implies a linearity; a time-line with points that represent first, a time when god desired something he did not presently have, and then a time after he had fulfilled that desire?

That is definitely not my belief. God does not experience all points in time simultaneously. Quite the contrary. Before the universe: timeless, since the moment of creation: temporal. Given that, there is no logical contradiction in God having a relationship with someone or experiencing desires.

"Given that", the question is merely asked again how he came to desire in his "before the universe" state of timelessness...Steve....lol. Not that it matters..this is all just a giant irrelevance that these poor posters got suckered into by your never-ending stream of batshit assertions...but hey, whatever gets their rocks off, amiright?

[LadyForCamus]

Heh?!  I’m asking you to clarify what you meant. You said god had a desire for love and companionship, but that these desires differ (categorically?) from the desire for love and companionship that humans experience for one another.

Not categorically, they differ in extent.

Okay...why does god, a wholly perfect and complete entity, want love and companionship from a source separate from himself?  Couldn’t god simply generate wholly satisfying feelings of love and companionship within himself?

Why so defensive?

Because you're being aggressive I suppose.

Uh, okay.  No aggression intended.

I’d love to hear from Steve.  Do you agree with that  portrayal of god’s nature?  Or, do you have something else in mind?  I’m curious to hear everyone’s perspective.

I probably agree with it with regard to this universe.

Could you expand on that?

---

So, for fun basically?  we’re toys?

Why did you decide to have children? For fun? Are your kids toys?

Of course not, but I’m a human being, not a complete, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent god...so, I’m not sure why you would ever make that comparison.  I’m assuming we would have different reasons than god since we are not god.  Yes?

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I have a question for our Christians:  Why did God create people?   Further, why did he create anything at all?

Good questions. 

Why do we desire friendship, spouses? How about the desire to have children? I think it is because relationships add a specific kind of value to the lives of both people. There is joy when the other person succeeds, there is a desire to help when the other is in needs, there is greater satisfaction in shared experiences, there is comfort when there is tragedy, and there is a feeling of peacefulness when everything is good between two people.

I think God created us for those and similar reasons: An eternal relationship has value both to us and to God.

So, god was lacking something, or was unfulfilled in some way before creating humanity?  He was...lonely?

[John V]

Okay...why does god, a wholly perfect and complete entity, want love and companionship from a source separate from himself?  Couldn’t god simply generate wholly satisfying feelings of love and companionship within himself?

Er, why do you assume that the desire is to receive love and companionship? Maybe the desire was to bestow those things on something separate from himself. Personally we had children because we had love to give, not because we needed to receive.

Could you expand on that?

For this thread the important point would be that there was a time that God existed before he created this universe. So, that he knows all points of time in our universe doesn't preclude him from having desired to create the universe.

Of course not, but I’m a human being, not a complete, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent god...

The Bible says that Jesus was made perfect through suffering. Contemplate that awhile.

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So, god was lacking something, or was unfulfilled in some way before creating humanity?  He was...lonely?

Wow, interesting how you're straining for a gotcha moment.

[Crossless2.0]

LadyForCamus: So, god was lacking something, or was unfulfilled in some way before creating humanity?  He was...lonely?

Wow, interesting how you're straining for a gotcha moment.

Hey, all's fair in fan fiction.

[LadyForCamus]

Okay...why does god, a wholly perfect and complete entity, want love and companionship from a source separate from himself?  Couldn’t god simply generate wholly satisfying feelings of love and companionship within himself?

Er, why do you assume that the desire is to receive love and companionship? Maybe the desire was to bestow those things on something separate from himself. Personally we had children because we had love to give, not because we needed to receive.

Okay.  I accept that as plausible; the notion of wanting to give love to something else the way we want to have children to love.  But, I can’t think of a single thing my children could do to me or anyone else, that would drive me to cause them eternal pain and suffering as punishment; to cast them away forever.  That would be terrible parenting.  This is where it falls apart for me.  

Could you expand on that?

For this thread the important point would be that there was a time that God existed before he created this universe. So, that he knows all points of time in our universe doesn't preclude him from having desired to create the universe.

There was time before time?

Of course not, but I’m a human being, not a complete, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent god...

The Bible says that Jesus was made perfect through suffering. Contemplate that awhile.

Not exactly sure what that has to do with Huggy’s faulty analogy.

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So, god was lacking something, or was unfulfilled in some way before creating humanity?  He was...lonely?

Wow, interesting how you're straining for a gotcha moment.

Huh?  It’s a perfectly fair, reasonable, and earnest follow-up question to what has been said so far.  All I’m asking you to do is walk me through the reasoning.  Why are you putting up such a stink?

[zebo-the-fat]

If a god made the universe (everything that exists) where was he before he made it? (heaven is not an answer because it would be part of "everything that exists")

[LadyForCamus]

Let me ask you: how does an omniscient, omnipresent entity, who (according to Steve’s accountings) experiences all points in time simultaneously, experience desire?  Desire implies a linearity; a time-line with points that represent first, a time when god desired something he did not presently have, and then a time after he had fulfilled that desire?

That is definitely not my belief. God does not experience all points in time simultaneously. Quite the contrary. Before the universe: timeless, since the moment of creation: temporal. Given that, there is no logical contradiction in God having a relationship with someone or experiencing desires.

I wish...I wish...I could remember the name of the thread where you said exactly that. 


But anyway, why would a wholly perfect and complete god have desires at all?

[Whateverist]

So, for fun basically?

For loving companionship basically.

we’re toys?

No, we - or rather the saved - are adopted children of god; the bride and body of Christ; joint-heirs with Christ.

*my bolded*

This kind of rote citation of what could only be metaphoric words originally as if they held some literal significance always just seems so clunky, and reinforces in me the suspicion that submission to the bible is a kind of self-abnegation.

[LadyForCamus]

This is my line of reasoning:

If god created people out of some yearning for fulfillment; some feeling of lacking something that would be rewarding, or add meaning to his existence, then he is not a fully whole and perfect being.

If none of the above, (or any relevant variation of it) is true, then god created us purely for his own pleasure, enjoyment, amusement, and/or fun. If this is the case, I find it morally reprehensible, considering what happens to those of us who end up on his naughty list. That would be like getting a puppy for the fuck of it, and then torturing him when he pees on the floor.

[Whateverist]

I have a question for our Christians:  Why did God create people?   Further, why did he create anything at all?

Hey, watching monkeys throw poo at each other amuses one only for a limited time, if you catch my drift.

And so God said "let them evolve" and when they'd developed the capacity for sarcasm and standup comedy He saw that it was good.